Gospel Confusion...

[homwardbound]

Under the Kingdom Gospel of the apostles to Israel, they were still required to do the work of water baptism to obtain remission of sins. Isn't it great that we today are not required to DO anything for that, given that faith in Christ, His death, burial and resurrection on the third day, is the faith through which we are given grace (unmerited favor) unto salvation?

One fella tried to tell me that water baptism is a matter of "obedience," and therefore allegedly not a "work." If that were the case, then obedience to the Law of Moses was also not a works-based system, and Paul made enough argumentation against all that for us to know better. That fella was hoping to foist that one over onto us without anyone noticing, but it went down in flames.

Amen for that.

Free to choose, self, another person, a group of people, a religion
Yet, Father in charge of it all, loving us all, proven by Son for me in his willingness to go to that cross to save us all, seeing, whoever decides to believe God gets set free and as in Phil 1:6 tells me whom carries on the work after anyone believes God sincerely
Wow is me Is 6:1-7

 

[homwardbound]

Nope, the question Jesus was answering was this…

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

When the End will happen is when, the truth of the risen Son has consciously gotten across to all to see the new Law of Love, not Laws as the first chosen only saw and were confused in, under the literal law. Not born new then as today people are born new in God Father's Spirit and Truth, by God Father through risen Son, the way, the truth and new life offered us all, to believe or not.
I see, a new High Priest, Jesus the risen in Spirit and Truth for us to follow willingly, be dead to first birth, willingly, between God and whichever person decides to believe God personally or not. Willingness is the key, fro me that opened that door to see, thanks
Then the End, when God calls it all in as done. What is now done, is Son to form us to be new in Father's Spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit gift of life everlasting. I see this, when the End happens at that time, no one will have any excuse, none! For God in Spirit and Truth, The Holy Spirit will have reached everyone to consciously choose, until then this grace race continues as God loves us all ,y'all, to me at least
Thanks for your view, it is correct, as well

 

[Musicmaster]

It's very easy to overlook the blessings of grace Gentiles have all enjoyed since the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:12-15
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The crux of all this is the failure of preaching the truth about Israel's fall, in that there was a long delay to the beginning of the tribulation and the Kingdom so that Gentiles could enter in without having to join with Israel as was the case in times past.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is so wonderful what the gift of God's grace has done for us all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Another reason for the gospel confusions is the lack of desire to actually follow Paul and cling to His gospel:

1 Corinthians 14:36-37
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Someone in one of the threads on this board posted most or some of Acts 2, highlighting the references Pater made to Christ's death and resurrection, and the claim was that Peter also taught faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, when in fact he did not. He taught the cross in the sense of a fact and in Acts 2, he spoke of the death of Christ as an ACCUSATION, not as a part of his command to the Jews as the Gospel for salvation that he taught, which was inclusive water baptism for the remission of sins, that baptism was nowhere taught by Paul as the gospel given to him to preach by Christ Jesus.

Paul never once even hinted at the idea of water baptism being the means for the remission of sins, and yet some out there continue to parrot the claim that Paul and the eleven taught the same gospel message, with no differences in their content, as if the posters on here are authoritative over God and His sovereign right over changing the means for salvation for mankind when the nation of His chosen ministers continue to reject Him all the way through the stoning of Stephen. Some absolutely hate the idea that Israel was the portal through which all had to pass to find salvation. They seem to hate Israel that much, the very Israel Paul loved through his whole being.

So, these false, mental creations people invented out of thin air, and do invent purely from the corridors of their own imaginations, about things said by Peter and Paul as allegedly being absolutely similar in every respect, while ignoring the differences within the wholistic contexts within which they were said, its manic. The things some inject into the words of those who wrote the scriptures, all in an attempt to give some sort of false credibility to the claimants false beliefs and their pastor's false teachings to them, its a vicious circle that will continue to spin until at least the tribulation period.

In other words, as Paul stated, there's nothing spiritual about an adherence to teaching that do not apply to anyone since the beginnings of Paul's ministry. Refusal of Paul's gospel is an evidence for total lack in one's spirituality.

There are Hebrew Roots followers out there who demand that Paul was a false apostle because of his statements against the teachings for required adherence to the Law of Moses. That hellish doctrine is more common out there than what many realize. Peter and the eleven, their gospel died with the fall of Israel because it was taught by Christ ONLY to Israel, not to Gentiles. The Gospel of the Kingdom taught by Christ Jesus and the eleven, it will once again be revived and brought to life in the Tribulation once the age of God's grace ends at the rapture before the man of sin is revealed.

Replacement theology continues to blind the minds of so many, most of whom hate Israel so much, and on the basis of things that only Satan could have concocted in the minds and hearts of those who are more interested in hellish doctrines than the truth of scripture by rightly dividing the word of truth.

MM

 

[Psalm1]

So, to whom did Jesus have His disciples preaching the Kingdom Gospel, and what was the content of that gospel?

Matthew 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

No instruction about the cross, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day, ONLY that the kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The cross was not a part of the kingdom gospel, and for good reason, and yet some still claim they all preached the same gospel.

Why is that?

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is that what Paul preached as his gospel to Jews and Gentiles that was hidden in God since the foundation of the world, that had the demon princes known of it, that they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory?

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Paul preached the same gospel as the eleven, then there's a problem:

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul knew very well what the eleven were preaching, for he persecuted the believing Jews and proselytes because of the doctrine of the Kingdom Gospel. To him and the other religious leadership in Israel, it was heretical. Otherwise, why was he persecuting them if he did not know what they were preaching?

But here in Galatians 1, we see him stating that what he received from Christ Jesus was not ever what other men had been teaching and preaching. If it's all the same, then, as stated, we have a serious problem here in the traditional dogmas of a singular gospel. Was Paul a liar? Who is it that we saw being correct for his hypocrisy? Was it Paul? No, it was Peter who was in error, corrected by Paul because the gospel Peter preached to Israel simply wasn't the same as what Paul preached to the Gentiles and believing Jews, all who lost their distinctions as Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus.

Under the Kingdom Gospel preached by Jesus and the eleven, Gentiles were dogs!

Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

This, with many other things already quoted, such as not going to the Gentiles or even the Samaritans, clearly shows that the Kingdom Gospel is not the same as the Gospel of Grace.

Are you now beginning to see the problem in the confusing claim that it was all the same Gospel? Under the Kingdom Gospel, Gentiles were dogs, with no mention of the cross, the Blood, nothing apart from water baptism unto the remission of sins, which clearly is not true today under Paul's Gospel. Under the Gospel of Grace, all men can be saved and sealed by Holy Spirit, with there being absolutely no mention of that sealing under the Kingdom Gospel.

When one rightly divides the truth, he doesn't end up with truth from falsehood, but rather truth from truth, realizing what was written TO us and what was NOT.

MM

I keep seeing these hyper Pauline's quote over and over " we rightly divide the truth"

Uh no...you Do Not at all.
You pick verses like all false doctrine does.

You trample God's testimony of Jesus and put Paul ahead of the words of Jesus.
Jesus preached salvation through himself only
...AS DID PETER,JOHN, AND JAMES.

AND BTW.. NO HYPER PAULINE UNDERSTANDS SALVATION.

 

[Psalm1]

It's very easy to overlook the blessings of grace Gentiles have all enjoyed since the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:12-15
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The crux of all this is the failure of preaching the truth about Israel's fall, in that there was a long delay to the beginning of the tribulation and the Kingdom so that Gentiles could enter in without having to join with Israel as was the case in times past.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is so wonderful what the gift of God's grace has done for us all.

MM

Thank you Jesus for your word, that we don't have to worship Paul who is the Savior of the hyper paulines.

 

[Psalm1]

I noticed that you quoted no scripture for backing, so there's not much to discuss since your post is rooted in your opinion.

However, in answer to your question, Paul's Gospel is precisely that...the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and nothing else:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Some believe that Paul was remiss by leaving out water baptism unto remission of sins, but that was no longer the saving Gospel that was given to Paul for him to preach to the Gentiles and believing Jews. The sin of omission is something Paul cannot legitimately be accused of having perpetrated, but some see themselves as qualified to stand with Satan to accuse Paul.

MM

Shaking my head.
PETER, JAMES, PAUL, AND JOHN PREACHED WHAT JESUS PREACHED
THE DEATH BURIAL AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS.
WHEN WILL YOU PAULINES START TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE BIBLE?????

 

[Leastofall]

It's very easy to overlook the blessings of grace Gentiles have all enjoyed since the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:12-15
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The crux of all this is the failure of preaching the truth about Israel's fall, in that there was a long delay to the beginning of the tribulation and the Kingdom so that Gentiles could enter in without having to join with Israel as was the case in times past.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is so wonderful what the gift of God's grace has done for us all.

MM

Now you have my attention.
The fall of Israel as you put it was actually a fulfillment of prophecy to yet again point to the one and only Christ.
" He came to his own but they received him not.
Had ancient Israel excepted him then this would surly go against what was written. Excluding Jesus.
The Lord God was very specific on the identity of Jesus.

The gospels shows over and over again that the pharisees were more concerned with keeping the law rather than the promise of the one to come.
Jesus charged them for not knowing the time of their visitation. Which Daniel gave the exact date.

The good news is that salvation has come and is extended to all that chose to believe. God himself became the sacrifice as he swore by his name.
The covenant that many refer to as the new covenant is actually the covenant of newness.
Jesus even said behold I make all things new. Even time its self was changed.

 

[Musicmaster]

Some may recall that fourteen years after Paul was converted by Christ Jesus, he went to Jerusalem by revelation from Jesus Christ.
what he did on that trip was he informed Peter, James, and John of his gospel that he preached to all the Gentiles, and he did so in private; only to those other apostles. If Paul and the other apostles had all been preaching the same gospel, Paul’s trip would have been completely unnecessary for starters, and he would not have determined cause for revealing his gospel to them in private.

Clearly Paul’s gospel was different. Paul wanted to inform Jesus’ disciples about the gospel of grace Jesus had revealed to him and his
ministry to the Gentiles.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Now you have my attention.
The fall of Israel as you put it was actually a fulfillment of prophecy to yet again point to the one and only Christ.
" He came to his own but they received him not.
Had ancient Israel excepted him then this would surly go against what was written. Excluding Jesus.
The Lord God was very specific on the identity of Jesus.

The gospels shows over and over again that the pharisees were more concerned with keeping the law rather than the promise of the one to come.
Jesus charged them for not knowing the time of their visitation. Which Daniel gave the exact date.

The good news is that salvation has come and is extended to all that chose to believe. God himself became the sacrifice as he swore by his name.
The covenant that many refer to as the new covenant is actually the covenant of newness.
Jesus even said behold I make all things new. Even time its self was changed.

Let's carry this narrative yet another step forward, in that Israel was the portal through which all Gentiles had to pass (become proselytes) to become members of the Kingdom and unto salvation:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This is so obvious, and yet remains excluded from the understanding of those who follow after replacement theology's clownish doctrines deeply rooted in that hellish smoldering of man-made doctrines that fill the halls of so much of modern, institutionalized religion.

So many continue to miss this point about the way to salvation of the past, which was of the Jews just as Jesus clearly and succinctly declared, and yet replacement theology has most ignoring this fact in order to think that Jesus came not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles...all while calling Gentiles "dogs!"

That so many out there continue to kick against the boulder of truth, wondering why their toes are so sore, they continue to exhibit the typical, stoic indifference through their habitual rhetoric of denials taught to them by the churchianity traditions that remain the fodder for their religious cud they chew while turning dull eyes to those who dare try to wake them up to truths they don't want to hear.

Good stuff. Thanks for your post.

MM

 

[GWH]

Thank you Jesus for your word, that we don't have to worship Paul who is the Savior of the hyper paulines.

Yes, we should not worship Paul, but realizing that we most likely would never have heard of Jesus if Paul had not spread the Gospel and worked with two of the gospel writers, Mark and Luke, and written epistles before they wrote the gospels, we should respect and appreciate him appropriately.

Jesus recruited Paul, John set up shop in Ephesus, which Paul had evangelized, and Matthew expanded upon Mark's material.

Also, Jesus only had to deal with a couple of problem disciples (Peter and Judas) in Galilee and Jerusalem, whereas Paul had hundreds of headaches from Jerusalem to Rome--so may we not add to that demeaning posthumously!

 

[Leastofall]

Let's carry this narrative yet another step forward, in that Israel was the portal through which all Gentiles had to pass (become proselytes) to become members of the Kingdom and unto salvation:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This is so obvious, and yet remains excluded from the understanding of those who follow after replacement theology's clownish doctrines deeply rooted in that hellish smoldering of man-made doctrines that fill the halls of so much of modern, institutionalized religion.

So many continue to miss this point about the way to salvation of the past, which was of the Jews just as Jesus clearly and succinctly declared, and yet replacement theology has most ignoring this fact in order to think that Jesus came not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles...all while calling Gentiles "dogs!"

That so many out there continue to kick against the boulder of truth, wondering why their toes are so sore, they continue to exhibit the typical, stoic indifference through their habitual rhetoric of denials taught to them by the churchianity traditions that remain the fodder for their religious cud they chew while turning dull eyes to those who dare try to wake them up to truths they don't want to hear.

Good stuff. Thanks for your post.

MM

I've found a great disconnect between judisim and Christianity that is not in Gods word but in Gods people.
Not until my latter years have I've been shown and moved to try to teach and show that the Lords work is to unite both jew and gentile as one in christ just like Paul said.
The new testament is very Jewish not just in Matthew's writings but all throughout.
I detest replacement theology for many reasons but the one that no one considers is that replacement theology makes God a failure.

 

[Musicmaster]

I've found a great disconnect between judisim and Christianity that is not in Gods word but in Gods people.
Not until my latter years have I've been shown and moved to try to teach and show that the Lords work is to unite both jew and gentile as one in christ just like Paul said.
The new testament is very Jewish not just in Matthew's writings but all throughout.
I detest replacement theology for many reasons but the one that no one considers is that replacement theology makes God a failure.

As an Israeli, I remain thankful that we are all made one in Christ today through His work that He accomplished on that cross AND His Gospel of Grace under which we currently live and thrive. We are all then brought into His singular body with no earthly distinctions within and under the Gospel of Grace. As such, we will also dwell in Heavenly places with Him, with Israel inhabiting the New Jerusalem upon the new earth, with the nations of the earth who were not covered under the Gospel of Grace populating the nations around the New Jerusalem upon the new earth.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

As such, we will also dwell in Heavenly places with Him, with Israel inhabiting the New Jerusalem upon the new earth, with the nations of the earth who were not covered under the Gospel of Grace populating the nations around the New Jerusalem upon the new earth.

No, we'll all be on the earth along with Christ. Whatever weird version of dispensationalism you're pushing, it's confusion and garbage.

 

[Musicmaster]

It's sad that some have and will transliterate this into oblivion, wrecking the clarity of the language and words chosen for the truth that it conveys:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Various elements of replacement theology, which taints so much of Western theological doctrines, have and will claim that the above verse was a reference to the ancients before the cross, and that therefore those in the time of Christ and the apostles are not objectively those who are within the population of which this verse is speaking. They absolutely refuse to accept the fact that Israel was, what I call, the portal through which Gentiles had to pass in order to be IN Christ as a part of His Kingdom Gospel.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Elements of replacement theology has many rejecting the absolute conclusion to which this verse, dare one apply intellectual honesty, drives any seeker to understand, in that until Israel's fall at the point of Stephen's stoning by way of Israel's continued rejection of Christ, Gentiles had no other choice but to join with Israel.

Luke 13:5-9
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The above is key to what the Lord says as He continues:

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree [hint, hint] planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? [Notice the present tense of "find."]
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Israel failed to bear the fruit of faith in Israel's Messiah, culminating in their rejection of Christ when they stoned Stephen for His testimony of Christ Jesus, which was one year after the ascension of Christ into Heaven. See the parallel?

So, the leaven of replacement theology remains in the religious lump of churchianity in order to leaven the entire lump into the dredges of foolish indifference to what scripture says to the student who dares to read it for what it says, instead choosing to read it all through the corrupt lenses of church traditions and false teachings.

Blessings to you and yours who seek the truth.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, the leaven of replacement theology remains in the religious lump of churchianity in order to leaven the entire lump into the dredges of foolish indifference to what scripture says to the student who dares to read it for what it says, instead choosing to read it all through the corrupt lenses of church traditions and false teachings.

Dispensationalism is the real replacement theology because it replaces Christ with earthly things. Christ inherited all things, but dispensationalists seek to rob him of his glory, and for that reason it's truly the work of satan

 

[Kroogz]

It's very easy to overlook the blessings of grace Gentiles have all enjoyed since the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:12-15
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The crux of all this is the failure of preaching the truth about Israel's fall, in that there was a long delay to the beginning of the tribulation and the Kingdom so that Gentiles could enter in without having to join with Israel as was the case in times past.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is so wonderful what the gift of God's grace has done for us all.

MM

Israel has fallen out of Grace........For the time being. God Is coming back for them and ALL that has been promised to them will come to fruition.

We(The Church/His bride) have many blessings that are unique to us. And Israel has many blessings unique to them. No one is "Above" anyone else.

His Church will acquire all of its promises.

Israel will acquire all of its promises.

We see the reversionism of Israel in His word. They did not spread the good news to the WORLD. So, God is using His Church for that purpose in this dispensation. If his church fails......He will set up another route. But the Church still receives Its promises.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

His Church will acquire all of its promises.

Israel will acquire all of its promises.

We see the reversionism of Israel in His word. They did not spread the good news to the WORLD. So, God is using His Church for that purpose in this dispensation. If his church fails......He will set up another route. But the Church still receives Its promises.

They're all the same promises, ie the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and according to promise, heirs. Galatians 3:26-29​

 

[Kroogz]

They're all the same promises, ie the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and according to promise, heirs. Galatians 3:26-29​

Salvation and Christ. To all.

Maybe Trump is right? We have ALL the promises.....Gaza should be ours. Israel is next.

 

[GWH]

Salvation and Christ. To all.

Maybe Trump is right? We have ALL the promises.....Gaza should be ours. Israel is next.

"Maybe Trump is right?"

Righter.

However, I claim to have had the b/right idea about Gaza about 50 years ago when I realized it would be cheaper in the long run to pay every Palestinian a million dollars per acre for selling land with clear title to the Jews.

If this had been done as the Jews moved into Palestine after WWII, there would have been no Jewish-Arab War from the get-go, and Gaza could be the Riviera of the Eastern Med by now.

World leaders back then were stupidly short-sighted!