Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Free will is the capability to fulfill a choice, choosing is the act of making one.
Your wrong.. Simply wrong..

If i get thirsty and decide i will get a can of soft drink / pop from the fridge to drink and then open the fridge and there are no soft drinks cans in the fridge i cannot fulfill the choice that i made.. But i still made the free willed choice to go to the fridge to get a can of drink Right.. Just because i had the free will ability to make a choice to get a can of pop does not mean my decision will always succed in obtaining my desire..

The ability to choose IS FREE WILL..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Where did i say you did? I WAS being facetious.
Well make the free willed choice not to be facetious then.. Unless you think you have no free will and you therefore could not do anything other then make that choice which wasn't a real choice because since you believe we have no free will then you believe you have no control over what decisions you make..
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Looks to me like this could be ganging up to suppress opinions they don't like too friend. I love free, open discussion, we learn so much that way.
Well, it can be said a million times that the discussion around free will is only in relation to whether
or not the natural man with his stony heart and inherently hostile-to-God mind can choose to believe
without first being enable by God, which is to say, made alive in Christ and undergo a heart circumcision.


But then a million times, two million ears will close, and knee jerk reactions
take over while a host of irrelevant ideas are floated like turds...

If i get thirsty and decide i will get a can of soft drink / pop from the fridge to drink and then open the fridge and there are no soft drinks cans in the fridge i cannot fulfill the choice that i made.. But i still made the free willed choice to go to the fridge to get a can of drink Right.. Just because i had the free will ability to make a choice to get a can of pop does not mean my decision will always succed in obtaining my desire..

The ability to choose IS FREE WILL..
See, this has zero to do with the discussion. See above.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
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Go Figure

Sin is All About Choices
https://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-sin-is-all-about-choices.htm

Throughout history, men have used just about every conceivable excuse to justify sin in their lives. Consider the time at the foot of Mount Sinai—in the midst of Israel’s wicked idolatry—when Aaron tried to justify his poor choice. When questioned about the calf he fashioned for the Israelites to worship at their request, he told Moses, “And I said to them, ‘whoever has any gold, let them break it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf came out” (Exodus 32:24). Whether it is a one-time act, or a continually repeated sin that besets one, statements such as, “The Devil made me do it,” “I had no choice,” or “I could not help myself,” have often been heard. Nevertheless, such thinking is foreign and contrary to the word of God.

The Bible teaches that sin is a matter of individual choice (cf. Ezekiel 18). It begins with discerning good from evil (Hebrews 5:14) and then refusing the evil and choosing the good (Isaiah 7:15). A sure and consistent pattern for such thinking can be clearly established from the beginning of time.

In the garden, Adam and Eve were given free will, as well as some very specific instructions. They could eat of the fruit of every tree except one, which God declared off-limits. When tempted by Satan, Eve made the wrong choice—she partook of the forbidden fruit, as did Adam (Genesis 3:1 ff). Though Eve blamed Satan, and Adam blamed Eve, they each bore the consequences of their individual sins, as each had made the choice to commit that sin. Pointing the finger elsewhere never justifies sin, nor does it remove the consequences.

In like fashion, Moses committed a sin when—instead of glorifying God and obeying His instructions—he glorified Aaron and himself, choosing not to follow God’s command. This incident is found in Numbers 20:7-13. The Israelites needed water and God specifically instructed Moses on how to provide that water (v. 8). Moses did not head the instructions exactly (vs. 10-11), thus he suffered the consequences of his wrong choice. Even when the choice to sin is made in the heat of the moment, the consequences remain.

King David is another testimony to the fact that sin is a matter of individual choice, and God will hold man accountable. David, walking on his roof one evening, came upon an awkward situation. A woman (not his wife) was bathing where she could be seen. David, now faced with a choice, subjected himself to the temptation—instead of turning away from the compromising situation. In so doing, one sin led to another—before long a great evil was done for which David suffered grave consequences (2 Samuel 11-12). Even if we are faced with a tempting situation, the choice to turn away and avoid its consequences is still available—thus, rendering our actions inexcusable.

In truth, the examples are boundless. Sin is all about choices. James wrote, “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted of God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:12-15). From this passage, we can acknowledge some simple facts about sin, temptation and choices.
God does not tempt man. God might allow man to be tempted (cf. Job’s temptation by Satan), but He does not directly tempt man. As a matter of fact, with each temptation man suffers, God is faithful, in that He, “will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13). This verse is bona fide proof that we, as individuals, must bear the burden of choice with each and every sin!

We are tempted by our own desires. Often, we place ourselves in bad situations. We considered the example of King David, who made the choice to be enticed, and in turn, was enticed. In like fashion, people today do the same thing. For example, men and women often allow themselves to be in compromising situations with those of the opposite sex, who are not their spouses. Too often, the outcome is fornication, infidelity, and broken homes. Likewise, when recovering alcoholics frequent establishments that serve alcohol, they set themselves up to sin. Consider the folly of recovering drug addicts choosing to befriend people who abuse drugs (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:33). The list is unlimited. The fact is that we choose our circumstances, be they our workplace, our companions, or our environment. Why do we burden ourselves with situations that we are certain to stumble in and commit sin?

Temptation is the birthplace of sin. We need to realize that we have not sinned until we give in to our temptations. This does not mean we should push the threshold of temptation to the maximum. Rather, we should know that even if we are tempted, we do not have to give in! We can still turn it around! We can still avoid sin! We need to simply say NO! This is why the Spirit teaches us to “abstain from every form of evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:22). We are instructed to “resist the devil and he will flee from us” (James 4:7). We are told to “flee sexual immorality” (1 Corinthians 6:18). We are commanded to “abhor what is evil, cleave to what is good” (Romans 12:9). We must acknowledge that even in the heat of temptation, as Satan is turning up the thermostat, we choose to avoid sin by not giving place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27)!

Indeed, sin is all about choices. We make choices between right and wrong, good and evil, acceptable and unacceptable, pleasing and not pleasing, truth and error every day of our lives. These choices will determine our eternity. Ultimately, the choice is between life and death! It is important to understand: it is one thing to know right from wrong and another thing altogether to choose right over wrong. Ask yourself, “What kind of choices am I making?”
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Looks to me like this could be ganging up to suppress opinions they don't like too friend. I love free, open discussion, we learn so much that way.
They largely do not even know what the discussion is about. Rightly dividing is thrown
out the window. Pretenses about believing things Scripture does not even say rule the day.
Meanwhile the many ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities only
the spiritual man possesses, while they are completely blind to the fact that they do this.
I suppose this has been going on for many hundreds of years.
Pelagianism was called a heresy long time ago.
 
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I am so you are and do but you are a babe in Christ and the Holy Spirit will only give you the knowledge you can handle -where you are in your spiritual walk ---

Scripture to support this ====

Bible verses related to "babes in Christ":

  • 1 Corinthians 3:1: "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ"
  • Hebrews 5:13: "For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant"
  • 1 Peter 2:2: "Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation"
What does "babes in Christ" mean?
The phrase "babes in Christ" is a metaphor used to describe new Christians who are still growing in their faith.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

It's a reminder that Christians should focus on spiritual nourishment and growing in grace, rather than on performance.
*I am so you are and do but you are a babe in Christ and the Holy Spirit will only give you the knowledge you can handle -where you are in your spiritual walk*

That is absolutely true but free will itself is something i've explored in considerable depth, know my definition has considerable legs. It has often surprised people but they recognise it's viable for sure.

I'm one of those who loves in depth conversations, which wind up with an agree to disagree conclusion pretty regularly. Civilised debate is a pleasure to me and usually a learning experience for myself and those i share such experiences with.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Ask yourself, “What kind of choices am I making?”
The natural man makes choices consistent with his nature, which means as darkness, which is how that person is defined as per Scripture... they do not comprehend the Light, nor can they receive or understand the spiritual things of God, which you and you ilk turn on its head and say, yes, they can choose to believe with their stony heart, and hostile-to-God mind, just like a leopard can change the colour of its spots, and an Ethiopian the colour of his skin. You have no idea.

"Grace Through..." what?" alone?
Faith... which is a gift of God.


1 Corinthians 4:7b, John 3:27, Romans 9:15-16 ~ What do you have that you did not
receive? And if also you did receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, “A man
can receive only what is given him from heaven.” “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Well, it can be said a million times that the discussion around free will is only in relation to whether
or not the natural man with his stony heart and inherently hostile-to-God mind can choose to believe.
See, this has zero to do with the discussion. See above.
I am only dealing with the Original topic of the Thread which was the existence or non existence of Free Will and if Humans have Free will or not..

And the last few posts i have posted is dealing with the correct Definition of what Free will in human beings actually is..

I know there have been some wanderings off the main topic by others in the thread buts thats between those who are deciding ( free willed decisions by the way ) to get into other aspects and other related topics..

As for what you said::
Well, it can be said a million times that the discussion around free will is only in relation to whether
or not the natural man with his stony heart and inherently hostile-to-God mind can choose to believe.
The natural man left to his / her own devices will never choose the Way of Salvation.. But thats why we believe in the moving of the Holy Spirit when the Word of God is shared with an unbeliever, We believe the Holy Spirit acts upon the conscience of the unbeliever to convince them of the truth of His Word and Convict them of their need for the Way of salvation that comes Via the Atonement of The LORD Jesus.. But in the end of that process the individual human being must STILL MAKE THE DECISION to embrace the WORD of God and follow the LORD or will i reject the WORD of God and go my own way.. That decision is a Free Will decision.. Yeah it is subject to the moving of the holy Spirit fighting with the flesh will of the unsaved.. But that does not lessen the fact that the actual human must make their decision as to if they will follow Jesus or reject Jesus..

Calvinism ( which i oppose ) states that the moving of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted and that all whom the Holy Spirit chooses to call will come to salvation.. This doctrine part of their 5 tier TULIP doctrines runs counter to the actual word of God..

The following statement by the first martyr of Christianity Stephen must be declared uninspired by calvinists if the calvinist doctrines are to be established as the inspired word of God..

(Acts 7:47-53) "But Solomon built him an house. {48} Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, {49} Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? {50} Hath not my hand made all these things? {51} ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. {52} Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: {53} Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

So yeah people have the free will ability to resist the moving of the Holy Spirit..

Many are called few are chosen..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Not when it comes to spiritual matters pertaining to salvation. Salvation is by GRACE alone...............
Yes salvation is by Grace alone.. Amen.. But salvation by grace alone does not mean we have no free will..
 
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The natural man makes choices consistent with his nature, which means as darkness, which is how that person is defined as per Scripture, they do not comprehend the Light nor can they receive or understand the spiritual things of God which you and you ilk turn on its head and say, yes, they can choose to believe with their stony heart and hostile-to-God mind, just like a leopard can change the colour of its spots and an Ethiopian the colour of his skin. You have no idea.


Faith... which is a gift of God.
Do agree with this, have had times where i thought God must exist but the certainty i feel now, plus it's become the most important thing in my life, makes me feel God is drawing me.
 
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I am only dealing with the Original topic of the Thread which was the existence or non existence of Free Will and if Humans have Free will or not..

And the last few posts i have posted is dealing with the correct Definition of what Free will in human beings actually is..

I know there have been some wanderings off the main topic by others in the thread buts thats between those who are deciding ( free willed decisions by the way ) to get into other aspects and other related topics..

As for what you said::


The natural man left to his / her own devices will never choose the Way of Salvation.. But thats why we believe in the moving of the Holy Spirit when the Word of God is shared with an unbeliever, We believe the Holy Spirit acts upon the conscience of the unbeliever to convince them of the truth of His Word and Convict them of their need for the Way of salvation that comes Via the Atonement of The LORD Jesus.. But in the end of that process the individual human being must STILL MAKE THE DECISION to embrace the WORD of God and follow the LORD or will i reject the WORD of God and go my own way.. That decision is a Free Will decision.. Yeah it is subject to the moving of the holy Spirit fighting with the flesh will of the unsaved.. But that does not lessen the fact that the actual human must make their decision as to if they will follow Jesus or reject Jesus..

Calvinism ( which i oppose ) states that the moving of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted and that all whom the Holy Spirit chooses to call will come to salvation.. This doctrine part of their 5 tier TULIP doctrines runs counter to the actual word of God..

The following statement by the first martyr of Christianity Stephen must be declared uninspired by calvinists if the calvinist doctrines are to be established as the inspired word of God..

(Acts 7:47-53) "But Solomon built him an house. {48} Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, {49} Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? {50} Hath not my hand made all these things? {51} ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. {52} Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: {53} Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

So yeah people have the free will ability to resist the moving of the Holy Spirit..

Many are called few are chosen..
Why do you not understand that is YOUR interpretation of free will and that others have different, equally valid interpretations? No point claiming but i have the right one either, sure you only take note of ones which agree with you.

It's called confirmation bias.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I am only dealing with the Original topic of the Thread which was the existence or non existence of Free Will and if Humans have Free will or not..
Do you really think the subject of free will in Christian circles has to do with what colour of socks you choose to
wear or what you decide to eat for lunch? As per the OP, even those options are restricted when viewed properly...


It is unfortunate that so many stray from what the topic is really about.

And that would be, what options the unregenerated person has, as a slave to sin and lover of darkness.
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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The natural man left to his / her own devices will never choose the Way of Salvation.. But thats why we believe in the moving of the Holy Spirit when the Word of God is shared with an unbeliever, We believe the Holy Spirit atcs upon the conscience of the unbeliever to convince them of the truth of His Word and Convict them of their need for the Way of salvation that comes Via the Atonement of The LORD Jesus.. But in the end of that process the individuel human being must STILL MAKE THE DECISION to embrace the WORD of God and follow the LORD or will i reject the WORD of God and go my own way.. That decision is a Free Will decision.. Yeah it is subject to the moving of the holy Spirit fighting with the flesh will of the unsaved.. But that does not lessen the fact that the actual human must make their decision as to if they will follow Jesus or reject Jesus..
I agree that man must make this decision. However, since the Holy Spirit was involved - the decision come from a new heart! This would never happen without grace from a loving God. Therefore, it is a gift.
 

SonJudgment

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Jun 25, 2024
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Yes, universalism doesn't jibe with GW.

The only way determinism works is if you view hell as just or jibing with love. If so, please explain your rationale before I continue.
I think you mean jive lol. Damnation is just, it is just that the enemies of God get punished and that the faithful get vindicated.

i think you need to accept God's free offer of Salvation so you can ask the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT to enlighten you about God's intentions of giving us free will ------cause your Worldly View is just that Worldly and not Spiritual -----

The only free will we have is in our decisions we make ---that is it ------

lucifer had free will to choose -----he chose to allow Pride and Power to influence him and rebelled against God who created Him -----all angels have free to make their own decision just like we Humans have to serve God or Satan ---and some angels and Humans made the Choice to serve Satan and rebel against God ----

Eve had a choice to listen to God or listen to Satan who used deception to sway her choice -----Adam was a type of Christ and was the Captain of the Ship and his Wife persuaded him to make his choice to commit High Treason against God -----

If there was no free will to choose God would not have had to put curses on them ---as they would have been God's puppets and remained Faithful to God's Command -----there would have been no need for a satan in this world -----

Here is what you with your Worldly lens is missing to see ------

God needed Lucifer to become Satan so God could give Humans free Choice -----without Satan ---we would all be living and obeying God in harmony and peace -----there would be NO FREE CHOICE ---we would all be God's puppets doing His Will -----

So your No FREE WILL Theory is Satan putting thoughts in your head and you made a Free Will Choice to post your Satanic --deceptive thoughts here to try and deceive the true Doctrine of Free Choice that God gave us

You wrote this through infiltrated deceptive thoughts that Satan put in your mind ----and you chose to listen to the deceptive thought and post it all on your own free choice to do So ---- you had a choice to write this or not write this ----and you chose your own path here ------

Your mind becomes the battle ground for your free will choices ----

Your ignorance of Scripture and knowing God is very evident here -------Free Choice to choose ---Life or Death ----God Himself speaking Here and telling you to Choose LIFE OVER DEATH -----AND BLESSINGS OVER CURSES ====your choice


Deuteronomy 30:19

Expanded Bible

19 Today I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses. I am offering you life or death, blessings or curses. Now, choose life! Then you and your ·children [L seed] may live.

We have free will to choose ----Life or Death ---Blessings or Curses -----Eve had a choice ---Adam had a Choice ---Lucifer had a Choice ----and we have Free will to choose -----

Warning here for your free choice --with God's Free Will for us to Choose ----we need to choose Wisely


Have you ever considered that it is in fact the serpent who suggested to the woman that she has freewill to eat from the tree? God did not give her such a choice, God told her expressly not to eat of it. It is almost amusing how the earthly think when they're told expressly not to do something that they somehow interpret this to mean they have a choice to do it or not. The presence of consequences is also just another point that destroys the error of the idea of freewill. Everyone that has ever been in a real position of authority knows this well; the servants either obey or they get fired.

Just pointing out the obvious concerning Eve. The Bible states that Eve """saw""" that the fruit was good before she ate it.

It's true she was commanded not to eat of it and she was beguiled. But she came to a point of realization that this is GOOD TO EAT and then ate of it. That action is most definitely 100% voluntarily.
Was the tree actually good for her to eat? The answer is no, she had to be deceived into thinking it was good for her to eat. Since she had to be deceived into thinking that it is good to eat then it is not 100% voluntary.
 
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I think you mean jive lol. Damnation is just, it is just that the enemies of God get punished and that the faithful get vindicated.




Have you ever considered that it is in fact the serpent who suggested to the woman that she has freewill to eat from the tree? God did not give her such a choice, God told her expressly not to eat of it. It is almost amusing how the earthly think when they're told expressly not to do something that they somehow interpret this to mean they have a choice to do it or not. The presence of consequences is also just another point that destroys the error of the idea of freewill. Everyone that has ever been in a real position of authority knows this well; the servants either obey or they get fired.



Was the tree actually good for her to eat? The answer is no, she had to be deceived into thinking it was good for her to eat. Since she had to be deceived into thinking that it is good to eat then it is not 100% voluntary.
It also shows the truth that dwelling on sinful thoughts leads to sinful actions. Think the related scripture says something like when looking at the fruit, it became good to her eyes? Something like that.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Why do you not understand that is YOUR interpretation of free will and that others have different, equally valid interpretations? No point claiming but i have the right one either, sure you only take note of ones which agree with you.

It's called confirmation bias.
If that where the case i would not have bothered responding to your posts / your thoughts.. My objective is two sided.. Firstly To Help you.. And secondly to take a stand against false doctrine..

Now if you want to reject my attempts to help you and you are confident in your POV over you not having free will then my posts will only be about resisting false doctrine.. The doctrine that people have no free will is Calvinism and i will oppose calvinism because i believe it is false.. And yeah for the time being this forum allows people to express their opposition to calvinism.. It also allows people to post their support for calvinist doctrines.. I am cool with the forum allowing both responses..