Is Open Theism Heresy?

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Nov 14, 2024
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#21
Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would repent of the destruction he said he would do to them?
What makes you think that he didn't? God has set this precedent in place where nations are concerned.

Jer 18:7
At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Nineveh met the conditions, and God repented/relented of the judgment they were facing at that time. Jonah seemingly knew that the Ninevites would repent, and that is why he initially fled from God's call.

Jon 3:5
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6
For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7
And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jon 4:1
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
Jon 4:2
And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

This same principle applies to individuals as well. In other words, God commands all men everywhere to repent. Those who repent will find mercy. Those who do not will find judgment.

Do you think that God knows who will ultimately be saved and who will ultimately be lost?

I do.
No, he did not. If anybody is lying, then it is you who are lying about God.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#22
Open Theism is indeed heresy. How can God not know? If He did not, He would not be God.

"I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’" Isaiah 46:10

Psalm 33:10 & 11
The LORD frustrates the plans of the nations; He thwarts the devices of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations.

Time is God's creation. He is outside of time. How else could Jesus be the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world? How could God have foretold the birth of the Lord Jesus to a woman? And that immediately after the fall of man?

If God created the vast universe from nothing, the incredible variety of life on the earth, the angels and mankind, then nothing is impossible for Him. That includes knowing the future in the minutest detail.
The charge of heresy should be made only when the a belief contradicts what a person must believe in order to satisfy God’s requirements for salvation. secondary details can be learned later.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#25
What makes you think that he didn't? God has set this precedent in place where nations are concerned.

Jer 18:7
At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Nineveh met the conditions, and God repented/relented of the judgment they were facing at that time. Jonah seemingly knew that the Ninevites would repent, and that is why he initially fled from God's call.
If....then....choose.

If a nation does this, then God knows what he will do with that nation. But if that nation does this, then God knows what he will do with that nation. Choose.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#26
And yet, it was God that said, "now I know."
Taking one statement and not considering the whole of God's word is the ideal way to arrive at false conclusions. I don't know why God used that expression. The whole of human history was predicated on Abraham's obedience. That I do know.

There are many verses that confirm God's foreknowledge, even to the point of naming a king who had yet to be born. Cyrus was foretold 200 years before he conquered Babylon. Can you imagine how many things had to come together to make this happen? Yet God foresaw it. That's just one example. Elijah foretold the death of Jezebel. How did he know? God told him. How did God know? He knows everything there is to know about everything there is to know.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#27
"Heresy" is a pejorative adopted by the church to prevent discussion on certain foundational beliefs. Of course there are real heresies, like "God does not have children" or "Jesus never died", but what some consider foundational beliefs are often just beliefs from their variety of denomination.

Open Theism is not heretical, at least not intentionally so. It's just wrong and does not take the whole scripture into consideration. Whenever there are seemingly two competing scriptures it is best to err on the side of the eternal. Scriptures, of course, do not compete against each other; only our limited understanding makes them seem so.

For example: was Christ crucified about 2000 years ago or from the foundation of the earth? The answer is "yes". :D
In eternity, where time does not rule, He was slain from the foundation of the world. In time and space He died on the cross about 2000 years ago. Both are true: on example sets the template for all of creation.

Something of note: When was the Son made a little lower than the angels?

An accompanying question: if the Lamb of God, who is Christ, was slain at the foundation of creation, how was He killed?

If He, Jesus, was made like us in every way, it would seem He must have resigned into the mind of God before appearing in the earth just as we were "in the mind of God before being born". This would have occurred when God, in three persons, decided to appear in the time and space to make the earth and man. Christ would have been slain in eternity, by His own volition, because the shadow and form of His sacrifice was seen in the earth from the beginning of man.

Notice, also, that Jesus did not know everything when He was alive. The Son, along with man and the angels, did not know the Day of His return... only the Father knew Yet we know, after He appeared as the Christ in the earth, all things the Father had, including the Day of His return, were put under His authority. Revelation shows us that He knew of His own return as He gave the Revelation to an angel to give to John (a man).

To follow this: when the angel of the Lord speaks to Abraham "now I know that you fear God" this would have been the Son, who had not yet been given all the Father has and willingly only received what the Father gave Him.

To carry this further, even in the passage above (Genesis 22) there are interesting names for God: there is God, the Lord, and the angel of the Lord. It would seem the Three were present at this moment that the Seed of faith appeared in Abraham: whose lineage would eventually produce the One Seed, Christ, in time and space. These are the same Three who said "Let Us make man in our own image and likeness" at the foundation of the world.

Is it heretical to think these things, no, of course not. Please, do not build a doctrine out of my observations. These are just things I see and think about when I read the passage. I, a mere man, am just handling these things with the level of care to which I practice. The Spirit of the Lord will always bring the answer. Sometimes it's "yes", others "no" and, more than I like, "you'll have to wait on that one".

Blessings
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#28
I wouldn’t call open theism “heresy”, because I don’t think it’s a question of primary doctrine. I also don’t think it’s a valid interpretation of the relevant Scripture because there are passages that clearly refute it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#29
Did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would repent of the destruction he said he would do to them? Did God lie?
Nineveh was destroyed...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#31
I wouldn’t call open theism “heresy”, because I don’t think it’s a question of primary doctrine. I also don’t think it’s a valid interpretation of the relevant Scripture because there are passages that clearly refute it.
What passages refute it? Please don't post Isaiah 46:10.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#36
1Jo 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Does God know all things?

Yes or no?
Yes, God knows all things, but future decisions by man are not knowledge until they are made. Man has been given a choice.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#37
@John146, do open theists believe God is omniscient? How do they define omniscience?
I'm not an open theist. I never even heard of the term until a couple years ago. I believe that scripture should define God and his attributes. Man should never define God based upon what we feel should be God's attributes, and then place God within our definition. Scripture should prevail. Scripture states that God is perfect in knowledge. Perfect meaning complete.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#39
"Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Did God lie?

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
Nov 14, 2024
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#40
Yes, God knows all things, but future decisions by man are not knowledge until they are made. Man has been given a choice.
That is nonsense. As has already been pointed out to you, Jesus knew that Peter would deny him before the denial, and we all know what God prophesied about Judas' choices way before Judas made them.