Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I've been unable to follow most of the posts here, Rufus, for the last week or two due to a very sick dog, so the verses I'm commenting on now may already have been hashed over. If this is the case and I am covering old ground, sorry. In any event, it seems to me that John 17 defines exactly whom the Father gave/gives to Christ for salvation, and conversely, who Christ is given to for salvation - both being the same people - and who it is that God does not give to Christ - that being everyone else. Those given eternal life, are the elect/saved given by God to Christ, and they God will raise up in the last day.
John 17 makes clear that those whom the Father chose to give to Christ are neither arbitrary, nor open-ended, nor all-inclusive, but are only certain, specific individuals, predetermined by God unto salvation.
V2 clearly makes evident that eternal life is only given to those chosen by Father to be given to Christ, and also, that Christ is given to them. It is also evident therefore, that since not all will receive eternal life, not all will be given to Christ - and there is no other way unto eternal life but through Christ. So, those not given remain unsaved.
[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
In v6, those to whom the Father's name ("thy name") is manifested, are those the Father gave to Jesus, and also, those Jesus was given to. No others.
[Jhn 17:6 KJV] 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
In v9, Jesus prays only for those whom the Father "hast given me", therefore telling us that the Father did not give everyone to Jesus. His prayer was not for the world but only for those given to Him. Jesus chose to pray for them because they are of the Father.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
In v23, Jesus tells the Father, that He is interested only in those whom the Father gave to Him - those whom Jesus is "in".
The Father also loves only those given to Christ.
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Since those given to Jesus are "not of the world", therefore, those given to Him must only include those no longer of this world
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. ...
In v20, Jesus's prayer was intended for all who would ever believe on Him, meaning that those who believe, do so, and choose Him, by God having given them to Jesus; those who don't believe, don't, because they were not given to Jesus; that is,
those not intended as an of the object of Christ's prayer, they then will never believe on Christ because they were not of those given by the Father to Christ.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; ...
V23 restates that for those chosen, they are given to Jesus, and that Jesus is also given to them.
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Only those whom the Father gave to Jesus will be saved and therefore, per John 6:39 &40, they alone will be raised up in the last day.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
In v26, the same love by which the Father loves Jesus will also be in those who believe in Jesus, because the Father gave them to Jesus (and gave Jesus to them).
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
With the clarifications of John 17 in mind, we can look at John 6:37,39, and know who Father "hath given", and who must come to Jesus. It is those the Father gave to Jesus as described by John 17:2. It also raises an interesting proposition about the phrase
"given me" in John 6 and other places - whether it should be understood as who is given to Christ, or who Christ is given to, or both?
[Jhn 6:37, 6:39-40 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. .
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Those given Him were His Sheep Jn 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
-
1
- Show all
Meanwhile some say everyone hears. Repeatedly pointing out these obvious errors in the thinking of others doesn't seem to do any good. Even if everyone did hear, hearing without comprehension is pointless. The natural man cannot comprehend the Light, and the gospel is foolishness to him. But this is what happens when people have a pet doctrine that is nowhere found in Scripture. Somehow it holds more sway over those who hold to it than the very words of Jesus.
-
1
- Show all
I can agree with that 
I merely provided those scriptures because they show there's time when what we do is beyond a choice but we do it because it's the leading of God and we freely choose to obey Him.
I merely provided those scriptures because they show there's time when what we do is beyond a choice but we do it because it's the leading of God and we freely choose to obey Him.
-
1
- Show all
Read Rom 1 and 9 some day. Before Esau did any right or wrong, his eternal destiny was sealed by God. While it's true that man is his own worst enemy, the deceitfulness that naturally inheres in man will never condemn himself. He's far too proud and self-righteous. But when he stands before the Righteous Judge of all the earth, then he will receive what he deserves.
So, it is not possible to say that a storm is coming our way because storms are things and cannot come? It is not possible to say, "There is a crisis coming our way", because crises are things and cannot come? I cannot say, "There is an inheritance coming to Me," because an inheritance is a thing, and things cannot come?
-
1
- Show all
I know atheists that would give the shirt off their back to a complete stranger in need, would pull the complete wad of cash from their pocket and give to someone hungry, would do every good work listed in the Bible and put 90% of Christians walking with God for years to absolute shame. They even have been in numerous Church services, watched people accept God down at the altar, believe there's a true moral purpose found in the pages of the Holy Bible. But in all of it believe they're morally good and have no need for a God.
It's really a tragedy because if they were saved would have the ability to bring strangers to know about God.
I wonder sometimes if Christians were better servants following the example of Christ just how many atheists would accept God?
But when you know you are doing more for the people of the world than those who claim to know God it's difficult to believe you need to change and become more like them.
It's really a tragedy because if they were saved would have the ability to bring strangers to know about God.
I wonder sometimes if Christians were better servants following the example of Christ just how many atheists would accept God?
But when you know you are doing more for the people of the world than those who claim to know God it's difficult to believe you need to change and become more like them.
Eternity transcends time; after all, the latter is merely a creation. In God's world there IS only NOW. There is no past or future. There is only Today with God! God exists OUTSIDE the constraints of his creation of time. God is not pantheistic, as your heresy implies. If God changes, it cannot be in eternity. And if anything changes in time it must do so chronologically. There must be a point in TIME before the change took place and another place in time during which the change takes place and another point in time after the change has taken place.
If God isn't absolutely immutable, then maybe all his other attributes and qualities are only relative as well. There is no shadow of turning with God (Jas 1:17) However, God often condescends to accommodate our finite minds by speaking anthropomorphically through his prophets (such as he did with Jonah). Besides, God is GREATER than men's hearts; he knows all things about every man's heart. God knows what's on a man's tongue before he even utters a syllable (Ps 139:4). But how can God be greater than men's hearts if he is dependent on the sons of men to gain knowledge, wisdom and insight?
So, according to you, God must learn from his moral creatures which flies in the face of the rhetorical questions God asked through his prophet in Isa 40:13-14. See also Num 23:19. In this passage, the questions are also very revealing. Moses doesn't ask, for example, "Does he (God) peer into the future and not act"? Or "does God learn from the future and not act?" No! Rather, he ask: "Does he speak and not act?" Or does he decree and not act!? See also 1Sam 15:29; Isa 46:9-11.
Lastly, get back to me when you find a text in scripture that says God works all things after the counsel of man's will. That would make for a great companion passage to Eph 1:11.
If God isn't absolutely immutable, then maybe all his other attributes and qualities are only relative as well.
There is no shadow of turning with God (Jas 1:17) However, God often condescends to accommodate our finite minds by speaking anthropomorphically through his prophets (such as he did with Jonah). Besides, God is GREATER than men's hearts; he knows all things about every man's heart. God knows what's on a man's tongue before he even utters a syllable (Ps 139:4). But how can God be greater than men's hearts if he is dependent on the sons of men to gain knowledge, wisdom and insight?So, according to you, God must learn from his moral creatures which flies in the face of the rhetorical questions God asked through his prophet in Isa 40:13-14. See also Num 23:19. In this passage, the questions are also very revealing. Moses doesn't ask, for example, "Does he (God) peer into the future and not act"? Or "does God learn from the future and not act?" No! Rather, he ask: "Does he speak and not act?" Or does he decree and not act!? See also 1Sam 15:29; Isa 46:9-11.
Lastly, get back to me when you find a text in scripture that says God works all things after the counsel of man's will. That would make for a great companion passage to Eph 1:11.
I am amazed at how conversant you are with God's own realm. Have you been caught up to the third heaven?
I don't agree that if something changes it cannot be ever-enduring. The fact that God changes, means that He endures over and experiences time. God is angry with someone and threatens them with punishment, but then He relents and bestows mercy? That's a change in God toward that person, from anger to forgiveness and kindness. Do you think Jesus has always been a human being in heaven, in some eternal unchanging now, and has always had nail-scarred hands there? Do you think Jesus never really left heaven, but has always been in heaven with nail-scarred hands? Or do you believe Jesus has no physical resurrection body in heaven? I can't see how your theology manages to join coherently all the biblical dots.
Psa 53:2
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Explain how "to see if" does not mean "to learn whether". The Bible says God is able to learn from observing mankind. You disagree with the Bible.... a lot.