The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[posthuman]

'NSNS'... ((Not Saved Never Safe))

also known as 'NSNSNS'

Not Saved Never Safe No Savior

 

[posthuman]

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

actually that would lead to solid consistency with the scripture.
if you depart from faith, you do not have salvation. why struggle over what you don't even believe is true? we struggle when we think something is the case, but evidence isn't consistent with our thoughts.

if you have salvation, you never fully depart from faith, His Seed remains.
the mental struggle is when you think your works, your own behavior and worthiness, are what saves you, and you discover that despite all your willpower, you are wretched. now what.

salvation is by faith, not works.
faith in a Savior, not faith in yourself to meet some goal.
there is zero confusion or inconsistency about this, if we believe what the Bible says.

 

[posthuman]

actually that would lead to solid consistency with the scripture.
if you depart from faith, you do not have salvation. why struggle over what you don't even believe is true? we struggle when we think something is the case, but evidence isn't consistent with our thoughts.

if you have salvation, you never fully depart from faith, His Seed remains.
the mental struggle is when you think your works, your own behavior and worthiness, are what saves you, and you discover that despite all your willpower, you are wretched. now what.

salvation is by faith, not works.
faith in a Savior, not faith in yourself to meet some goal.
there is zero confusion or inconsistency about this, if we believe what the Bible says.

if we do not believe what is written, that is, we do not believe Christ is our fully capable and faithful Savior, and we find ourselves not seeming to be very 'saved' - - well duh. we're not. because we have not believed.

 

[posthuman]

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

i did, as a youth.

guess (1) why, and guess (2) what the resolution was?

1. because i witnessed that my works were not worthy of Him, despite my will and my effort
2. i confessed Him and Him alone to be Salvation

it was at this point Salvation became mine, and no one in heaven or earth can snatch it away. i exchanged a flimsy cultural ethos and i gained actual faith: a gift

 

[posthuman]

at some point later i will get to post #2

 

[posthuman]

... but not yet!

Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all.

you've completed your own disproof.
as you say, those who "live like" - - who have a cultural so-called-christian model of ethical outward behavior - - "faithful Christians" - - vainly ignoring what The Faith actually is, salvation by grace through faith, not of works, excluding all possible boasting - - can and will certainly fall away.

because what you are describing is faith in outward behavior. not faith in Christ. naturally everyone, everyone with such a false hope is going to eventually see it is hollow, even if many proudly refuse to admit to it until the end of their earthly lives. it is of such that my Savior said, He never knew: those who said, see, we have done so many things things in Your Name!

but He never says the same of we who said, see, we have trusted in Your Name!

 

[Mem]

When Jesus explained salvation to Nicodemus, he wrongly equated it to natural birth and going back into his mother's womb, at which Jesus shook his head. However, the idea Jesus' word inspired in him might not have been so far off, though off as much to miss the exact meaning. For example, as natural birth works, there is a conception, and I think this aspect might be generally overlooked, as much as the period a mother carries the child before actually giving birth. Was it Job or another that spoke of being as a "stillborn," and it seems that this is this idea that some theologians are considering as a possibility. However, if a child is conceived by the Holy Spirit, to me it would follow that this one would be carried to full term without any danger of either abortion or miscarriage.

 

[Hakawaka]

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the salvation issue.

Confessing sin to GOD Is a fellowship issue.

There is nothing about feeling 'sorry' or 'paying' for it. Acknowledge it, name and site it.....And He is faithful and just to forgive us( Bring us back to fellowship.) AND He forgives us of ALL unrighteousness(all unknown sin and human good.)

Saved and always saved. Fellowship takes work.

Cope.

 

[Hakawaka]

My apologies. My intention was neither.

Have you ever thought about why God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins? It's because they are paid for, not because we ask.

I agree they are paid for not because we ask. But sins being paid for and forgiven are two different things. For example, ALL sin is paid for, but not all sin is forgiven. Think once again of Ananias and Sapphira. Think about what Peter says:

Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.

NOT a guarantee. Not a forgiven in advance situation here. It never is in the Bible. I dont find a single verse that says people are forgiven in advance. I can find verses that say Jesus died for the sins of the world sure. I can find verses that state Jesus paid the sins of even the false teachers and prophets in the churches, but even those people will be lost, because they refuse to be reconciled to God

 

[GWH]

The student of the bible must rightly divide the word of truth. There are divisions to be made throughout scripture. It is not good bible study to try and mesh all scripture to the same audience.

Re "The student of the bible must rightly divide the word of truth.":

Correct, and dividing means understanding, which involves applying a hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible. A good way to begin is with the instruction of Paul (1THS 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” A truthseeker is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth, especially the Truth of God’s Word? The method for discerning truth is reasoning or logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from other truthseekers, preferably via dialogue when possible, but otherwise by reading what they wrote.

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, a person might come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements. First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ). Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.”

This principle leads one to conclude that (third) even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as JSH 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

Other important elements in this hermeneutic include the following: (Fourth) Everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty or proof or coercion (2CR 5:7). Fifth, a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10). Sixth, humanity’s understanding of God evolved or progressed through the millenniums, so that (6.) the OT was superseded by the NT, which is the apex of divine revelation (HB 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. An interpreter should want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because (7.) the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, (8a.) becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture (in which God was revealed by creation, conscience and moral laws). As the philosopher Hegel taught: when considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), (8b.) the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that (9.) both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from the natural sciences and common sense (God-given reasoning ability, e.g., Paul's preaching to the Athenians in Acts 17), especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping to be guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).

 

[Cameron143]

I agree they are paid for not because we ask. But sins being paid for and forgiven are two different things. For example, ALL sin is paid for, but not all sin is forgiven. Think once again of Ananias and Sapphira. Think about what Peter says:

Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.

NOT a guarantee. Not a forgiven in advance situation here. It never is in the Bible. I dont find a single verse that says people are forgiven in advance. I can find verses that say Jesus died for the sins of the world sure. I can find verses that state Jesus paid the sins of even the false teachers and prophets in the churches, but even those people will be lost, because they refuse to be reconciled to God

On what basis does God send someone to hell?

 

[Jimbone]

On what basis does God send someone to hell?

Well God doesn't "send us to hell", that's where we are all headed in the first place. I think this fact is ignored by WAY too many Christian with an inflated view of our "power". We have none. Our choice has NO power, None. Outside of God we are powerless and incapable, full stop. When He GIVES you repentance and opens your eyes to the truth of what "your way" is worth, the fact you turn from it and run to Him is NOT some kind of "great decision" you made. Your choice was 100000% Him. Period, full stop, the end, that's the bottom line....

 

[GWH]

Well God doesn't "send us to hell", that's where we are all headed in the first place. I think this fact is ignored by WAY too many Christian with an inflated view of our "power". We have none. Our choice has NO power, None. Outside of God we are powerless and incapable, full stop. When He GIVES you repentance and opens your eyes to the truth of what "your way" is worth, the fact you turn from it and run to Him is NOT some kind of "great decision" you made. Your choice was 100000% Him. Period, full stop, the end, that's the bottom line....

IMHO, the bottom line is viewing humans as robots or as volitional and therefore morally accountable souls.
(Hope you saw my apology on another thread for coming across as unloving when I share my opinion.)

 

[Cameron143]

Well God doesn't "send us to hell", that's where we are all headed in the first place. I think this fact is ignored by WAY too many Christian with an inflated view of our "power". We have none. Our choice has NO power, None. Outside of God we are powerless and incapable, full stop. When He GIVES you repentance and opens your eyes to the truth of what "your way" is worth, the fact you turn from it and run to Him is NOT some kind of "great decision" you made. Your choice was 100000% Him. Period, full stop, the end, that's the bottom line....

While I agree with the substance of your post, God does cast people into the lake of fire. I'm just trying to ascertain the basis for this. It was stated that all sins have been paid for. If this be so, then one would assume that sin is not the cause of one being cast into hell. I'm trying to understand, then, on what basis does one end up there.

 

[Jimbone]

While I agree with the substance of your post, God does cast people into the lake of fire. I'm just trying to ascertain the basis for this. It was stated that all sins have been paid for. If this be so, then one would assume that sin is not the cause of one being cast into hell. I'm trying to understand, then, on what basis does one end up there.

By not being born again. Those who are not born-again go to hell. How are we born again? I can only tell you how I was, but I can tell you it wasn't me or anything I did. God saved me. He does this in MANY ways depending on the person, but the way we end up in hell is when we are not born-again.

To be honest I think only God can answer your question, it's not one I feel we have the capacity to grasp even if we had the "knowledge" of how.

 

[Jimbone]

While I agree with the substance of your post, God does cast people into the lake of fire. I'm just trying to ascertain the basis for this. It was stated that all sins have been paid for. If this be so, then one would assume that sin is not the cause of one being cast into hell. I'm trying to understand, then, on what basis does one end up there.

By the way my main point here isn't really the whole "choice/freewill" thing so much as it is just saying God get's ALL the glory for our salvation. I'm didn't really mean it in the way you took it, wasn't as much about the process of salvation and/or how it works, as it was about who gets all the credit for it. Not saying choice doesn't play it's part, only saying there's not power at all in our choice, all power is from God.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

Happens all the time. Roman Catholics trust their religious hoopla for their salvation, but they'll have a surprise coming, when what they THINK is "Purgatory" turns out to be HELL, and they're never getting out!!!! (satan's best JOKE on Catholics).

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Rom 8:16 covers it nicely.

 

[Cameron143]

By not being born again. Those who are not born-again go to hell. How are we born again? I can only tell you how I was, but I can tell you it wasn't me or anything I did. God saved me. He does this in MANY ways depending on the person, but the way we end up in hell is when we are not born-again.

To be honest I think only God can answer your question, it's not one I feel we have the capacity to grasp even if we had the "knowledge" of how.

Jesus came to save His people from their sin. Sin is the basis for the cross, and it is sin that separates men from God. Hell and the lake of fire are places the dead go to be separated from God.

If all sin is paid for on the cross, why does there remain a need for such places? More to the point, why would someone end up there if their sins were paid for?

 

[Cameron143]

By the way my main point here isn't really the whole "choice/freewill" thing so much as it is just saying God get's ALL the glory for our salvation. I'm didn't really mean it in the way you took it, wasn't as much about the process of salvation and/or how it works, as it was about who gets all the credit for it. Not saying choice doesn't play it's part, only saying there's not power at all in our choice, all power is from God.

I know and it's an important point. I was simply responding to a post that said all sin was paid for. I was just investigating the consequences of such a belief.

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 7:21-23 makes clear that one can be confident in their relationship with Christ without it being so. That's why we should give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

for as anyone thinks they are, to them they are and might be deceived (Proverbs 23:1-7) by dong good works as said in 1 Cor `13:1-3 without Love, (God's Love) permeating through anyone, one is still not saved by God anyways, might want to go to God in prayer and ask, over going to others to hear lies, using the truth to get you under other people (religion). Modern day Pharisees still seek proselytes, and make them twice the son of Hell as themselves.
Believe God in risen Son and see new from God who lives in you then through you once you begin to grow up new, willingly. If you, me or others are not growing up willingly, stuck on milk and not maturing and leaving sin behind them willingly, God performing this miraculous gift in God's kids, is amazing grace to me to stand in thanksgiving and praise seeing sin taken away, yet having a messenger of satan buffeting them as well, to keep the humility in truth for them, God's grace being sufficient 2 Cor 12:7-10
Either people glory in their iniquities or use them for self gain here and now. there is a gigantic difference. To be humble in need between God and you or not and use it to gain things here and now, sitting in Moses's seat
Each and every person knows within themselves, whether God saves them or not, Romans 8:15-16 thank you Lord
It matters not what I say, God says God loves us all, proven to me in Son going willingly to his death once for us all to believe it or not. Hebrews 10:10 read all of Hebrews