The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Magenta

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John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
 

Cameron143

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I see now, I knew I had something off. I was just looking at what you were saying from the wrong perspective. Thanks for clearing it up, because I was way off.:ROFL:, but to be fair I knew I had to be just because I read your comments most everyday and it just didn't line up.

I guess I'd just have to say "I don't know" to the question though.
:D(y)
You know; you just haven't thought it all the way through.
Why is Satan doomed for the lake of fire?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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All who have commented on my post who are OSAS’ers, if you are saying one was never saved, then the same must also apply to you, or else you’re not consistent in your belief. I think you are making my point. Thanks. There is absolutely no security in OSAS. My work here is done.

This quote is attributed to John Wesley:

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”
Your argument here is disconnected and relies completely on the opinion you bring to the text. I don't even know how to approach what you're saying because it's all based on your opinion, maybe worry less about the Calvin Monster and more about your understanding.

Help me to understand what this means, "if you are saying one was never saved, then the same must also apply to you, or else you’re not consistent in your belief"?
This was me and did apply to me as I explained in an earlier comment. What you seem to be arguing is an addiment and definitive statement that no one can know if they're saved. I'm so very sorry, but this is not true and can only be true to a person that is not saved in truth. I hate to say this to you because it seems your biggest problem here is you are suggesting that being born again isn't something that "happens", that the power of the Spirit when it makes us new can go unnoticed by the person, that the reconciliation and indwelling of His Spirit is not something we can really know happen.

Again I'm sorry, but this is DEAD WRONG, and the only way you can be arguing this is if you're still ignorant to the things of the Spirit, because you have not been born again. Let me be clear here again, I don't know you and cannot tell anyone if they are saved or not. I wouldn't even want to be able to do that, but what I can testify to you is that you can not be born again and not know, nor can you be born again and then undo it, so if you walk away, you were NEVER saved. As Jesus said, "many will come that day and say Lord, Lord, didn't we do such great things for you," then He told them "I NEVER knew you".

I just see how far you are from understanding this truth straight from the lips of our King and truly feel that you don't get it because you've not yet felt the transforming power of our Lord and King Jesus. I pray He continue drawing you closer every day no matter where you're at with Him. I also hope I'm not coming across arrogantly or like I'm trying to condemn you or anything like that. I understand your questions and wish there would have been more focus on this issue in the church before I was saved. No matter what I hope you have a good day today.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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Scriptures that teach you can be truly saved but then be unsaved:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
many of these can be explained by reading them as descriptions instead of prescriptions. what i mean is lets take this verse as it covers most of the ones you've chosen:

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. "

the way you read it is, if i hold to my original conviction firmly i will be saved. but you could also read it as a description. as the verse says, you have come to share in Christ if you hold firmly to your original conviction. so that is how you know you have come to share in Christ.
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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If so, from God's perspective, things are predetermined.
Well, in order not to blaspheme God's righteousness, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated, God would cause sin and hell would be hateful.

Thus, I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends (sovereignty) but allows the fish to swim as they wish (MFW), thereby affirming human accountability and divine omnilove.
 

Cameron143

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Well, in order not to blaspheme God's righteousness, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated, God would cause sin and hell would be hateful.

Thus, I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends (sovereignty) but allows the fish to swim as they wish (MFW), thereby affirming human accountability and divine omnilove.
I'm aware of your position. I also disagree about what God's requirements are.
 

Fillan

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When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”
.
Hello!

When most disciples deserted the Lord Jesus he said:

You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. (John 6:67-68)

Peter nailed it. Where else could they go? When someone is truly saved they're all in and they're staying, they're not going anywhere because there isn't anywhere to go. Those who came along for the free food and to be entertained watching miracles were off as soon as the Lord gave some teaching.

Matthew 13: 45-46 “A gain, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it"

When someone finds the pearl of great price they're all in.

God Bless You :)
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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That goes against scripture. Scripture teaches that people are cast into the lake of fire.
If you are suggesting that people fit themselves for destruction then I agree.

All of this misses my point. I'm interested in whether or not God knows what future actions He will take? And did He know He would take them all along or is He winging it in response to the actions of mankind?

The answer to these questions make a divide within the church. If the issue were resolved, there would be greater unity in the body of Christ.
I think God knows, I think/see God has put out God's mercy to us all from day one with the First Adam Whom, by the way God did not kill.
God told truth, if you eat from this one tree, you will assuredly die. God never said God would kill Adam. And God did not kill Adam or Eve. God put them out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground and play God. To find out they are not the most high to choose God to lead them or not willingly.
Psalm 82 revealed that to me, that we are as if a God. yet we are not the most high
God wants what is best for us all, y'all by mercy to us all (Jeremiah 29:11). We are not puppets as others want us to be their puppets for their own self gain, that I used to be that way too. Now changed trusting Daddy, PaPa, Father to get me through it all, without manipulating or forcing anyone to change to love God or even me
Okay, you love someone and desire for them to love you back right?
How can you get anyone to love you, without taking away anyones free choice to love you back?
If anyone's free choice is taken away and manipulated or forced to love you back, then it is not true Love is it?
Now, we each might begin to get a clue what true love is, having free choice to choose. As religion forces, and manipulates others, which is not real love, is it?
God saw All. that God loves us all, the creation All of us
How could God choose you to live and others to die? By being good enough? How can that be, when not one is perfect, not one!
Do, we the people really think we are once we believe God, are a better person than others, really? (Luke 18:9-14) I am not better than anyone else ever, "I" need my Daddy, Papa, Father to lead me, the same as Jesus the Son revealed to us all in his walk here on earth as perfect, only trust to Father his Father, now our Father too, to be lead in the same love and mercy of Son going to that cross willingly to save us all by choosing not having to do it or else attitudes of religionists
Choice, God does just love us all, y'all turn to Father, Daddy PaPa and see Jeremiah 29:11
Thank you and now rest in thanksgiving and praise over it, the done work done for you too to be new in Father's spirit and truth too
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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Of course. But judicially, he is doomed because his sins are not paid for.
He is also not a man, so I don't know exactly what rules do and do not apply to bad angels. I don't know why God did anything He has done. To be honest I don't really care. This line of questioning and the general topic of questioning why God does what He does, or how EXACTLY how "this thing" works in the mind of God, just doesn't grab my interest like other topics, I guess that's a good thing when the mind of God isn't something we can comprehend anyway.

So I'm going to rejoice in my salvation, learn as much as I can about Him by reading His word, stay in prayer as much as I can, and proclaim Jesus name to everyone I can, and by and through His power, do everything I can to represent how much I love Him by my actions and love for others. What I don't think much about is why doesn't God save "that guy", or "how can God send some to hell", or "if Jesus died for all sin, then why are people still going to hell". I'm not saying we shouldn't, or that there's not a perfectly reasoned answer to these questions. I just don't think this way very much, and it's not something I dive into much.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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That goes against scripture. Scripture teaches that people are cast into the lake of fire.
If you are suggesting that people fit themselves for destruction then I agree.

All of this misses my point. I'm interested in whether or not God knows what future actions He will take? And did He know He would take them all along or is He winging it in response to the actions of mankind?

The answer to these questions make a divide within the church. If the issue were resolved, there would be greater unity in the body of Christ.
I see what you mean really now. I believe that God knows, He does know what choice we will make, but doesn't make it for us. I don't believe that Him knowing and allowing us to make the choice requires ignorance on His part. And this is why I find these kinds of subjects uninteresting, it all boils down to a mystery of God. How does a sovereign God + Our choices = Gods perfect plan?

I just don't know, you don't know, they don't know, nor do them. This is just beyond our capacity to understand on any level.

So my answer is "both", and God doesn't "wing" anything but birds.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I think God knows, I think/see God has put out God's mercy to us all from day one with the First Adam Whom, by the way God did not kill.
God told truth, if you eat from this one tree, you will assuredly die. God never said God would kill Adam. And God did not kill Adam or Eve. God put them out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground and play God. To find out they are not the most high to choose God to lead them or not willingly.
Psalm 82 revealed that to me, that we are as if a God. yet we are not the most high
God wants what is best for us all, y'all by mercy to us all (Jeremiah 29:11). We are not puppets as others want us to be their puppets for their own self gain, that I used to be that way too. Now changed trusting Daddy, PaPa, Father to get me through it all, without manipulating or forcing anyone to change to love God or even me
Okay, you love someone and desire for them to love you back right?
How can you get anyone to love you, without taking away anyones free choice to love you back?
If anyone's free choice is taken away and manipulated or forced to love you back, then it is not true Love is it?
Now, we each might begin to get a clue what true love is, having free choice to choose. As religion forces, and manipulates others, which is not real love, is it?
God saw All. that God loves us all, the creation All of us
How could God choose you to live and others to die? By being good enough? How can that be, when not one is perfect, not one!
Do, we the people really think we are once we believe God, are a better person than others, really? (Luke 18:9-14) I am not better than anyone else ever, "I" need my Daddy, Papa, Father to lead me, the same as Jesus the Son revealed to us all in his walk here on earth as perfect, only trust to Father his Father, now our Father too, to be lead in the same love and mercy of Son going to that cross willingly to save us all by choosing not having to do it or else attitudes of religionists
Choice, God does just love us all, y'all turn to Father, Daddy PaPa and see Jeremiah 29:11
Thank you and now rest in thanksgiving and praise over it, the done work done for you too to be new in Father's spirit and truth too
But Adam not only began to die physically, he also died spiritually...just as God said. God did extend mercy to Adam and Eve, but to say they didn't die is false.

Secondarily, I don't believe choice equates to free will. We all can make choices, but I believe our choices are subject to our nature.
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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You know; you just haven't thought it all the way through.
Why is Satan doomed for the lake of fire?
Because he was the first to sin, he has continually sinned and he will never repent of rejecting GW.

T-nature along with ULIP is not an understanding that glorifies the love of God.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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But Adam not only began to die physically, he also died spiritually...just as God said. God did extend mercy to Adam and Eve, but to say they didn't die is false.

Secondarily, I don't believe choice equates to free will. We all can make choices, but I believe our choices are subject to our nature.
Just as every person after A&E dies physically and dies spiritually until they are reborn via saving faith in God.
 

Cameron143

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Because he was the first to sin, he has continually sinned and he will never repent of rejecting GW.

T-nature along with ULIP is not an understanding that glorifies the love of God.
He's doomed because Jesus didn't become an angel and die for his sins. Salvation was never offered to angels.

It has nothing to do with depravity. There was never a means of salvation of angels established by God.
 

Cameron143

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Just as every person after A&E dies physically and dies spiritually until they are reborn via saving faith in God.
Actually, they are born dead spiritually.
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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No matter, yes God's Spirit left Adam and Eve after they ate from that tree, left to work of the fallen flesh to play god. And all born after them, born dead to God' Spirit lead. I do not see it as I have to believe or do things to be in or get in with Father and Son, if did then this gift is not a gift as said is from God for us to live forever with Father and Son at ease in restful peace, seeing, fear kicked out by this done love of Son for us all to choose to believe God or not freely.
No matter, God did not kill them, they that to themselves, just as all do the same as God states in Ezekiel 18 at the end of that chapter
You do it to yourself, I (God speaking) do not do anything to you, you choose and chose to either believe God or not in Son for you or not, we the people, Individually are accountable, no one else. God did the work once for us all to rest in thankfulness seeing all sin taken away as far as the east is for the west, prophesy fulfilled in Son Psalm 103:12
Son for us all to believe is risen where new life is given to us each from Daddy, PaPa, Father, free of charge forever from Father in risen Son for us to be in love to all, whether others believe or not
God loves all, see it ask for it, since no first born flesh nature can do it. =Get imputed 1 cor 13:4-7 from Daddy, PaPa Father, thank you no condemnation, when see it, saw it, I saw can't condemn anyone ever again. Since God chose not to condemn me
I only love in truth now, seeing, God loved me first.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Hello!

When most disciples deserted the Lord Jesus he said:

You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. (John 6:67-68)

Peter nailed it. Where else could they go? When someone is truly saved they're all in and they're staying, they're not going anywhere because there isn't anywhere to go. Those who came along for the free food and to be entertained watching miracles were off as soon as the Lord gave some teaching.

Matthew 13: 45-46 “A gain, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it"

When someone finds the pearl of great price they're all in.

God Bless You :)
Hey,

Where in Scotland do you heil from?

I was born in the Gorbals.

Great post by the way.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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On what basis does God send someone to hell?
on the basis of "Unbelief" Son is risen where new life in God's Spirit and Truth begins for all that believe God
Accepts, reveals the forgiveness at the cross, sealing each in belief to see this and be at rest
No having to convince anyone anything about anything
Believe, receives and sees new in love to all, thanks