Continuationism vs cessastionism?

[1still_waters]

Anyways, not here to argue with people who have already made up their minds. Your faith is between you and God. Not you and I. If you do not have the faith to believe in something, regardless of what that might be, then that's something that only you and Him can sort out. And if you choose not to believe then there's nothing that I or even God (in a way) can to about it.

Well instead of going back and forth and making our heads explode, here's what I think we both agree on .

1. God does heal today.
2.Believers should ask for healing.
3.Sometimes we have not because we ask not, or because we ask with the wrong motives. Hence lack of healing could be due to lack of asking or wrong motives.

We disagree on..

1. Healing resting totally on the prayer's faith, without considering God's timing.
2. Healing resting totally on the receiver's faith, without considering God's timing.

In other words we agree on the core stuff, so I'm cool with that.

 

[Abiding]

Crossfire says: Because most people have already made up their minds on this issue. 99.9% of people simply do not have the faith.

This is the kind of teaching that damages alot of Christians. There is not alot of this kind of talk in the Epistles or is it
gona do more than discourage them. Especially as Still said that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Not to
mention we are NOT given any command to heal. Just bad all around. All His good pleasure will come to pass.

 

[Abiding]

In other words this logic next goes to telling believers that they shouldnt be sick,
then it goes to their lack of faith, next they leave the church hurt.. Its just bunk.
One of the few bad doctrines i really hate. And it has nothing to do with faith,
It has to do with Gods will. He supplies the faith if He wants us to have it.

 

[Muskokaman]

When I started this thread it had zip to do with calling yourself a faith healer or speaking in tongoes or anything like that!
It was me making my conclusions public as to where I stand on the cessationist vs continuationist debate and my viewpoint thereof.
I can most certainly see the reason for cessationism after watching this thread unfold, yet I still hold to what I originally said that continuationism has a lot of merit in its application.
As for proof of this being the case I put it to you this way.
Did the Jews believe Christ was the messiah in 33 A.D.?
Everyone knows the answer for this question, so if a MIRACLE was performed today of whatever type it may be the same scenario unfolds today as it did 2000 years ago and that is a crying shame.
I do not need a miracle to believe in God his evidence of being is all around us we should take the time to stop and smell the roses a little more and perhaps many would see his divine autograph in every good work they see.
When Jesus was accused by the pharisees as belonging to the devil as this was the only way (they figured) that Jesus could cast out demons as we all know this defintely wasn't the case.
You could put an obvious miracle in front of a 1000 people 300 would shout miracle 300 would shout fraud and 400 would be unsure of what to think and make their mind up based on what side was winning the argument that day so that they didn't look foolish to either side! (lukewarm)
Cessationists try to get around this argument by saying that they affirm that God can and will do anything he chooses at any time WELL DUH HE IS GOD!
Yet they denounce any kind of what they call apostolic gifts as existing after the apostolic period......... HOGWASH!
Jesus hasn't returned yet so they are very much in effect. Cessationists ascribe that the canons completion of the bible is what is referred to as "the perfect" this simply cannot be for the only perfect thing to grace the face of this earth other than God himself was and is Jesus Christ his son.

All one has to do is READ history and you will find case after case of some very amazing people whom the Catholic and Orthodox Churches call saints (not my choice of proper description of one endowed with GIFTS)
Joan of Arc as I pointed out in another post was one of these figures anyone who has studied her very short yet prolific life can only come to 1 of 2 possible conclusions;
1 she was posessed by a demon or many of them or.
2 she was endowed with gifts of leadership and other things by God
This was a 12 year old peasant girl in the middle ages (A very male dominent middle ages) who saved her country from foreign invaders and led them to victory with an army that was VERY small indeed. (Remember the story of Gideon)
This is just 1 of many examples of what I call divine intervention in history since the resurrection.
Faith Healing is a matter of faith remember the roman centurion with the sick child at home whom said to Jesus "just say it Lord and it will be so" and Jesus himself was astonished at the mans strength of faith of which he could not find in all the land they were in when this was spoken!


Selah

 

[Abiding]

Alot of stuff said there with alot of conclusions that can be made.
But it doesnt deal with cessation by definition.

Too bad labels are used without definition...since people tend to
presume so much.

 

[1still_waters]

Given the fact that most of our 'history' on continued gifts comes from within....

1. The Roman Catholic Church.
2. Questionable religious leaders within the Pentecostal movement.
3. Questionable leaders within the charasmatic movement.

...I'm left questioning the validity of it.

The Apostles were men of honor and sound doctrine. The groups listed above by me were sources of extreme error, questionable doctrine and moral filth. Making me wonder if any of it was from God.

God did warn about false signs from people teaching false things who had questionable moral lives.

Just a thought.

 

[Muskokaman]

Alot of stuff said there with alot of conclusions that can be made.
But it doesnt deal with cessation by definition.

Too bad labels are used without definition...since people tend to
presume so much.

Man I like you! You seem to have a cut to the quick sense and that is cool.
I guess we could ramble around the old mulberry bush all day on this one but I have seen things with my own eyes that defy logic and have to be attrributed to faith in God and I saw these things when I was as yet an unbeliever. So how much more now I believe in the gifts.
Wycliffe could be misconstrued as a prophet as he said" in 100 years another will come after me whom spirit you will not quell"
100 years later Martin Luther came on to the world stage!

 

[Strangelove]

That doesn't prove anything. The question is why are you there? Deep down are motives selfish or selfless? Are you their because you prefer solitude or are you their because people are dying and desperate need to feel and know the love of God?

I'm not trying to prove anything other than that I live in a non western country, and I preach the Gospel here as I would anywhere else.

Whats dying people got to do with it?

Why are you trying to make things personal by analyzing members and what they are doing?

 

[Crossfire]

I'm not trying to prove anything other than that I live in a non western country, and I preach the Gospel here as I would anywhere else.

Whats dying people got to do with it?

Why are you trying to make things personal by analyzing members and what they are doing?

Not there for missionary reasons then?

Have fun with you internet.

 

[Crossfire]

We should agree that Scripture is the final authority right? So let's allow scripture to settle this 'debate' right now.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"


1 Cor 14:39 "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues."

Pretty cut and dry. Jesus testifies that the gifts are for all believers. Paul then states that some may receive a certain gift while someone else might receive another. Paul goes on to say that not all will receive a gift although it would be to your benefit if you did. Lastly, Paul then says that you should not forbid the gifts.

If those who haven't received a gift such as these want to alienate themselves by worshiping only with one another, that's fine. However, you shouldn't criticize those who seek after or operate in the gifts.

SO SAYS THE SCRIPTURES! LEAVE YOUR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OUT OF IT.

DEBATE OVER!

 

[Strangelove]

Not there for missionary reasons then?

Have fun with you internet.

I'm on a mission for Jesus everywhere I go.

Why dont you stick to the topic instaed of analyzing me?

 

[Strangelove]

We should agree that Scripture is the final authority right? So let's allow scripture to settle this 'debate' right now.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"


1 Cor 14:39 "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues."

Pretty cut and dry. Jesus testifies that the gifts are for all believers. Paul then states that some may receive a certain gift while someone else might receive another. Paul goes on to say that not all will receive a gift although it would be to your benefit if you did. Lastly, Paul then says that you should not forbid the gifts.

If those who haven't received a gift such as these want to alienate themselves by worshiping only with one another, that's fine. However, you shouldn't criticize those who seek after or operate in the gifts.

SO SAYS THE SCRIPTURES! LEAVE YOUR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OUT OF IT.

DEBATE OVER!

So do you speak with new tongues like the Apostles did or do you talk GIBBERISH?

I think this is what its all about dont you?

Justifying unbiblical behaviour.

Tongue-wagging.

 

[Crossfire]

So do you speak with new tongues like the Apostles did or do you talk GIBBERISH?

I think this is what its all about dont you?

Justifying unbiblical behaviour.

Tongue-wagging.

Personally, I think it's about people and their religious pride looking to distort scripture because they are unwilling to surrender ALL to Christ.

 

[Strangelove]

Personally, I think it's about people and their religious pride looking to distort scripture because they are unwilling to surrender ALL to Christ.

Have you surrendered your tongue to Christ by gibbering unintelligable babble in your spare time?

 

[1still_waters]

We should agree that Scripture is the final authority right? So let's allow scripture to settle this 'debate' right now.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

1 Corinthians 12:29–30 "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"


1 Cor 14:39 "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues."

Pretty cut and dry. Jesus testifies that the gifts are for all believers. Paul then states that some may receive a certain gift while someone else might receive another. Paul goes on to say that not all will receive a gift although it would be to your benefit if you did. Lastly, Paul then says that you should not forbid the gifts.

If those who haven't received a gift such as these want to alienate themselves by worshiping only with one another, that's fine. However, you shouldn't criticize those who seek after or operate in the gifts.

SO SAYS THE SCRIPTURES! LEAVE YOUR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OUT OF IT.

DEBATE OVER!

Strangelove this seems like a strong argument in his favor. What is your biblical reply? Snarky comments back don't count.

 

[Crossfire]

Have you surrendered your tongue to Christ by gibbering unintelligable babble in your spare time?

It's not about tongues at all. You're simply trying to be antogonistic.

It's about living a life surrendered to Christ. Answer the call to go wherever He calls you to go and minister whomever He calls you to minister.

The reason why so many churches see so few conversion today is because it's leadership seldom understand what it means to be surrendered. They're too worried about looking good and sounding good, attempting to draw people in with their gimmicks and programs. There's no holy unction what so ever.

This should be our focus. Seeing the lost saved.

Not arguing over your silly religious traditions.

Now get over yourself and ask God to help you win souls out in the real world because all you are doing is sowing strife in here.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove this seems like a strong argument in his favor. What is your biblical reply? Snarky comments back don't count.

Ya I'm dealing with his first verse.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So I wanna know if Crossfires 'new tongues' are the same as the biblical kind.

 

[Crossfire]

Ya I'm dealing with his first verse.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So I wanna know if Crossfires 'new tongues' are the same as the biblical kind.

Seems to me that you're the one struggling with it. Sounds like something you should take to the Lord in prayer. I don't see how I've got anything to do with it.

Anyways, I got stuff to do.

You guys do try to have a good weekend and a blessed Sunday service.

 

[Strangelove]

It's not about tongues at all. You're simply trying to be antogonistic.

It's about living a life surrendered to Christ. Answer the call to go wherever He calls you to go and minister whomever He calls you to minister.

The reason why so many churches see so few conversion today is because it's leadership seldom understand what it means to be surrendered. They're too worried about looking good and sounding good, attempting to draw people in with their gimmicks and programs. There's no holy unction what so ever.

This should be our focus. Seeing the lost saved.

Not arguing over your silly religious traditions.

Now get over yourself and ask God to help you win souls out in the real world because all you are doing is sowing strife in here.

You assert that the gift of tongues is for all believers. So do people in your church practice that gift?

 

[1still_waters]

Ya I'm dealing with his first verse.

Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So I wanna know if Crossfires 'new tongues' are the same as the biblical kind.

You're hedging. Even if his version isn't the same, that doesn't mean tongues have ceased. It just means he has false tongues.

Show us in the bible that shows all of it has ceased.