I think there is a lesson in this about being careful what you say in order that should you say something flippant, it does not come back to bite you later on or offend others. In other words, say you grow more over the years but what you said now still lingers and judgemental types did it up. That can be bad.
The Rapture of the church, REAL or NOT REAL?
- Thread starter Johnny55
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Again, you are injecting meaning into the text that simply isn't there. If you believe that's an honest hermeneutic to apply within the microcosmic world of your beliefs, then you have that freedom. I'm not trying to take that from you. You are the one who made the claim that the rapture is at the last trump at the second coming of Christ. You provided no scripture to back it up, and certainly no logical explanation as to why anyone should believe you, to it's moot.
MM
H
Howdy
Guest
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
So, given that you appear to have no real hope of being raptured at the second coming of Christ, and that you don't appear even willing to show us something with substance, that leaves only hopelessness on your part as to why you refuse to provide evidence.
MM
H
Howdy
Guest
I have no doubt that I will Join the Lord in the air at his second coming with all the Saints.
You are the one who seems to believe you are more righteous than all those saints that have suffered tribulation and even death in the last 2000 years and even suffering and dying today. So righteous that God will rapture you before the time of tribulation comes.
You not have given a single Scripture in context that proves a pre-tribulation at any moment rapture of the church.
The Bible does not say that the Lord will leave His body here to suffer through the 'Wrath of God'.
And, despite what some may want to claim, the post-trib view does not teach it or even suggest it.
It is only imagined by folks who refuse to look objectively at what the Bible really actually says.
The 'seals' and 'trumpets' are not part of the 'Wrath of God'. Never have been. Never will be.
The 'vials' - and only the 'vials' - are the 'Wrath of God'. The Bible shows us this very clearly.
It helps to examine/study the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' in 'event' terms:
~ What occurs before what?
~ What occurs after what?
~ What occurs at the same time as what?
The Second Coming of Christ (His appearance) occurs before the 'Wrath of God' - it is Christ Himself Who "dishes it out" upon the earth.
(Yes - He sends angels out to perform the actions; however, He operates like a General instructing an army - telling them what to do.)
The 'seals' and 'trumpets' precede the Second Coming of Christ; and therefore, are over-and-done before the 'Wrath of God' comes about.
The very first thing Christ does at His coming is resurrect/rapture His saints.
While they are with Him "in the air", He "dishes out" the 'Wrath of God' upon the earth.
After that, the 1000-year reign of Christ - which begins when Christ appears - proceeds...
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
It speaks of both - the Second Coming of Christ (verse 30) and the rapture (verse 31) - which takes place at the Second Coming of Christ.
One singular event.
The second coming of Jesus is when the harvest happens.
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Jesus said plainly that the harvest is the end of the world.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is why I believe the rapture will happen at the second coming of Jesus.
When He appears in all His glory. No secret.
"Smiling". I am glad I could make you laugh. Do you have an opinion on the idea or viewpoint of there being a rapture or there being no such a thing as a rapture? Why or why not? What do you think?I feel like this deserves more than one laughing emojis
Thank you for commenting. Ya know, I believe that the subject of there being a rapture or not being a rapture is not one for contention really. I mean whats the worst that could happen if you don't believe in a rapture? Ya get raptured and we all wind up THERE with the Lord anyhow. Hmm, so to me it's a win win scenario wether you believe in it or not.
Hello Johnny55,
I wonder how long people will wait for what Jesus clearly stated was "at hand" "near" "shortly."
As well as @Angela53510 has pointed out several times over the years people quote 1 Thess. 4:17 all the time, but the verb "harpazo" is not translated as the noun "rapture."
She also rightly points out that word "rapture" is found only in Jerome's 4th century AD Latin Vulgate, because Jerome's Greek was very weak, and he transliterated a word wrong.
Oh, I see where your error rests. Thanks for the clarification.
The rapture before the tribulation belief is based upon considerable evidence that you appear to either be ignorant or have no desire to explore.
So, given that you believe my mind is made up to the point that nothing will convince me otherwise, that's a two-way street. You see, the pre-trib rapture belief is based upon much more than just eschatological studies, but also soteriological basis that you also seem to be unaware and unwilling to explore, so we are at an impasse before even presenting anything. That's called stoic Gnosticismon your part rather than rationalism.
Good luck with that. If all you're looking for are people who are ignorant enough to literally hang on every word you write about a topic, this isn't the place to find an entire population of people who are of that caliber...although it's possible there are some that ignorant here. That's on them, not me.
So, what's your point?
MM
If you would, please explain how there could possibly be a distinction to the extent that the Lord Himself, opening the seals with His own Hand to release the four horsemen upon the earth, killing one fourth of the entire world's population, is not His wrath.
I will agree that the second half will be the GREAT tribulation, with the horrors of His greater wrath being far worse than the first half.
But get this, those out there who are mathematically challenged, another third of mankind will die in the second half, which is the same number as those who die in the first half:
8 Billion X 0.25 = 2 Billion
6 Billion X 0.333333 = 2 Billion
In other words, one fourth will die in the first half during the opening of the seals, and a third of the remainder will die in the second half during the bowls, etc.
So, please explain to us all how you drive that wedge of distinction for wrath between the vials and the seals and trumpets.
How did you ever arrive at the idea of one fourth of the world's population being wiped out isn't within the scope of God's wrath at the presence of just the four horsemen from the seals? Is the Lord not in control? Was not that 70th week established by the Lord Himself against Israel and the unbelieving world?
As an Israeli, and am therefore well aware of our past and why the 70 weeks were leveled against us, and will continue in the 70th, and against the unbelieving world in totality. I'd very much like to see your thoughts on that.
MM
Y'both (MM & Howdy) seem to be quarreling now, which is a no-no per 2TM 2:14&23-24, etc.
Isn't the point regarding the rapture/second coming to be ready (MT 24:36-44)?
So, since we are at an impasse, can we find another topic that will be productive?
There are no postrib rapture verses.
I have challenged forum members to post one.
None have so far