The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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Thanks, but I have read on many times in many translations and in the Greek. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to receive His gift.
When we come to 6:28-29 we have some translational and interpretive work to do. These translations will show you a few things to consider - basically, what did Jesus mean? BTW, I have no issues with your last paragraph, but it does not erase what Jesus commanded in 6:27.
NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed (work) God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent."
I just went through this language issue on another thread. When we read the word "of" in these English versions we should know that there are 30+ ways to translate the wording in the Greek.
Also, in 6:29 where Jesus' reply begins with "This" He can be pointing forward or backward. So, Jesus can be pointing back to His command in 6:27 to work for the lasting food or He can be pointing forward to the last clause in 6:29.
Also, in the NKJ "that" where I have highlighted it in 6:29 could be the content pointed to by "This" in 6:29 or it could be the purpose of His command in 6:27.
We may not like these facts because we think we have all these things figured out while we sit and argue with each other about what the Text actually says and means, but we should note that translators still work on translations and see details differently as they do the work, which is still going on. I don't wait for the next version to argue about. I translate by myself and compare my findings.
We can go through these choices and paraphrase them if you'd like.
6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Num. 21:6-9 NKJ)
You asked me a few rhetorical questions. We can let Scripture answer each one of them. After Moses prayed, God answered Him and provided the solution. God commanded Moses and Moses did the work. Moses had to believe God and do what God commanded. The people had to believe God and do what God instructed - they had to look at the serpent on the [raised] pole if they wanted to live.
When we get these interpreted traditions imbedded in our thinking, we tend to eisegete or read past what Scripture actually says.
Jesus says unbelievers work for the [spiritual] food (teaching content to believe) that remains into eternal life. If Jesus commands this, and He does, and if Scripture says we don't merit wages to receive the gift of EL He gives, then the work to hear and learn the Gospel and believe, is not meritorious - not worthy of wages.
We just have to let Him explain how Salvation actually works and stop making things up.
Although tetelestai has a sense that can mean "paid" it is not its primary meaning, which is "finished," "completed." The payment for sins can be found elsewhere. Jesus finished the work our Father sent Him to do. He completed God's Salvation plan to the point of His death. After His resurrection that Plan was in place to pass on to us. We did nothing to make the Plan, complete the Plan, make it available to pass on, etc.. It is all of and from God.
This does not preclude Jesus from command unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel. The merit remains with the Planner, the Finisher, and the Giver.
Just let Him speak and explain what He's done and requires of us.
When we come to 6:28-29 we have some translational and interpretive work to do. These translations will show you a few things to consider - basically, what did Jesus mean? BTW, I have no issues with your last paragraph, but it does not erase what Jesus commanded in 6:27.
NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed (work) God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent."
I just went through this language issue on another thread. When we read the word "of" in these English versions we should know that there are 30+ ways to translate the wording in the Greek.
Also, in 6:29 where Jesus' reply begins with "This" He can be pointing forward or backward. So, Jesus can be pointing back to His command in 6:27 to work for the lasting food or He can be pointing forward to the last clause in 6:29.
Also, in the NKJ "that" where I have highlighted it in 6:29 could be the content pointed to by "This" in 6:29 or it could be the purpose of His command in 6:27.
We may not like these facts because we think we have all these things figured out while we sit and argue with each other about what the Text actually says and means, but we should note that translators still work on translations and see details differently as they do the work, which is still going on. I don't wait for the next version to argue about. I translate by myself and compare my findings.
We can go through these choices and paraphrase them if you'd like.
6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Num. 21:6-9 NKJ)
You asked me a few rhetorical questions. We can let Scripture answer each one of them. After Moses prayed, God answered Him and provided the solution. God commanded Moses and Moses did the work. Moses had to believe God and do what God commanded. The people had to believe God and do what God instructed - they had to look at the serpent on the [raised] pole if they wanted to live.
When we get these interpreted traditions imbedded in our thinking, we tend to eisegete or read past what Scripture actually says.
Jesus says unbelievers work for the [spiritual] food (teaching content to believe) that remains into eternal life. If Jesus commands this, and He does, and if Scripture says we don't merit wages to receive the gift of EL He gives, then the work to hear and learn the Gospel and believe, is not meritorious - not worthy of wages.
We just have to let Him explain how Salvation actually works and stop making things up.
Although tetelestai has a sense that can mean "paid" it is not its primary meaning, which is "finished," "completed." The payment for sins can be found elsewhere. Jesus finished the work our Father sent Him to do. He completed God's Salvation plan to the point of His death. After His resurrection that Plan was in place to pass on to us. We did nothing to make the Plan, complete the Plan, make it available to pass on, etc.. It is all of and from God.
This does not preclude Jesus from command unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel. The merit remains with the Planner, the Finisher, and the Giver.
Just let Him speak and explain what He's done and requires of us.
I was taught the anti-Catholic mindset also. Much of it I retain. A few years back I had some discussions with a Protestant who had converted to Roman Catholic. His understanding of Salvation was excellent and puts many here to shame, bro.
Your understanding of Faith is lacking. We're commanded to believe. Our belief is obedience. Things like turning to the Lord and believing are active words, things we do in response to what God requires of us. Receive and reject are actions, like it or not. I've read works where men attempt to make Faith purely passive. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to hear and learn. Some say Faith Alone. In response others say Faith is never Alone
Merit already covered. God specifies what is meritorious. Men mess it up working too hard to protect against what they say is all error of Rome. Then they commit their own error swinging the pendulum too far in reaction.
Eisegesis from men is also powerful. Thankfully, it can't change the Word, but men can and certainly do cloud its interpretation. Hopefully you know by now that you're still learning. As are all of us. If you don't know that, you hopefully will.
"based on the fact" or based on the premise? Remind me what your view of eternal security is.
Your understanding of Faith is lacking. We're commanded to believe. Our belief is obedience. Things like turning to the Lord and believing are active words, things we do in response to what God requires of us. Receive and reject are actions, like it or not. I've read works where men attempt to make Faith purely passive. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to hear and learn. Some say Faith Alone. In response others say Faith is never Alone
Merit already covered. God specifies what is meritorious. Men mess it up working too hard to protect against what they say is all error of Rome. Then they commit their own error swinging the pendulum too far in reaction.
Eisegesis from men is also powerful. Thankfully, it can't change the Word, but men can and certainly do cloud its interpretation. Hopefully you know by now that you're still learning. As are all of us. If you don't know that, you hopefully will.
"based on the fact" or based on the premise? Remind me what your view of eternal security is.
"I just go off of the word" is most everybody's claim. In reality we go off of how we read and interpret or have been taught the Word - whether accurately or inaccurately.
Thanks for your opinion but it's off-base suggesting I or anybody who interprets Scripture not along the lines you do are trying to take credit away from God. One of the concerns we have is that some of these teachings suggest we do absolutely nothing in the Salvation process. My main concern is that Scripture is translated and understood accurately so we aren't creating our own problems, which we always do.
Perfected/completed forever in the perfect tense requires the next phrase "into/for the continuous/perpetual" for it to mean what you're suggesting. This is where the translators are getting "for all time". Otherwise, the perfect tense only says something was done in the past and the result(s) existed at the time the author wrote.
The present tense can be translated in different ways as we can see different translators doing in this verse. It's not necessary to go through all of this here. The passive voice is definitely here, but this does not preclude other Scriptures like Phil2:12-13 from adding information about the process if this verse is talking about the experiential sanctification process as some translators think it is and others do not.
Earlier in Heb5 the author wrote of being perfect/mature in Christ vs. a child/infant. The concept of perfection is spoken of about 9 times in Hebrews. Are you perfect? Or has the Lord's sacrifice provided forever with God's Salvation Plan perfection for those who are sanctified or for those who are being sanctified or both or those who were sanctified and remain in Christ - as He commands - and go through the sanctification process, or...?
Our initial justification provides freedom from the imprisonment we were under. Subsequent justifications can be any time a test or trial is implemented (this is how some read James, and others soften it by saying justification before men). To be declared righteous simply means to be vindicated, proven right. The context of its usage must be considered to understand what it's speaking of.
Again, you're not able to speak for all people of all time in this regard. None of us are.
No offense intended, but I cannot take your word for what Scripture says. Please post any you want to interpret as you are here.
This is really not an argument. Please do better. If you'd like to discuss any Scripture, please bring it up and hopefully you'll be able to understand my arguments are against your interpretation of the Word.
13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Lk. 8:13-14 NKJ)
The second 8:13 believe for a while then fall away. Fall away from what/whom? Believe so were saved? Saved but no rewards? Believe, were saved, fall away/withdraw/rebel [from belief, from salvation]
The third 8:14 they heard. Did they believe? Did they begin to grow but never completed the production of fruit?
You tell me since you're saying I'm arguing against the Word. If you want a lighter load, explain belief for salvation re: the second soil.
Re: Heb6:
Sure, that's what I think. As I said, please do better in your arguments.
Let's begin with any of the Scripture brought out above. Heb6 and Luke8 intrigue me.
Thanks for your opinion but it's off-base suggesting I or anybody who interprets Scripture not along the lines you do are trying to take credit away from God. One of the concerns we have is that some of these teachings suggest we do absolutely nothing in the Salvation process. My main concern is that Scripture is translated and understood accurately so we aren't creating our own problems, which we always do.
Perfected/completed forever in the perfect tense requires the next phrase "into/for the continuous/perpetual" for it to mean what you're suggesting. This is where the translators are getting "for all time". Otherwise, the perfect tense only says something was done in the past and the result(s) existed at the time the author wrote.
The present tense can be translated in different ways as we can see different translators doing in this verse. It's not necessary to go through all of this here. The passive voice is definitely here, but this does not preclude other Scriptures like Phil2:12-13 from adding information about the process if this verse is talking about the experiential sanctification process as some translators think it is and others do not.
Earlier in Heb5 the author wrote of being perfect/mature in Christ vs. a child/infant. The concept of perfection is spoken of about 9 times in Hebrews. Are you perfect? Or has the Lord's sacrifice provided forever with God's Salvation Plan perfection for those who are sanctified or for those who are being sanctified or both or those who were sanctified and remain in Christ - as He commands - and go through the sanctification process, or...?
Our initial justification provides freedom from the imprisonment we were under. Subsequent justifications can be any time a test or trial is implemented (this is how some read James, and others soften it by saying justification before men). To be declared righteous simply means to be vindicated, proven right. The context of its usage must be considered to understand what it's speaking of.
Again, you're not able to speak for all people of all time in this regard. None of us are.
No offense intended, but I cannot take your word for what Scripture says. Please post any you want to interpret as you are here.
This is really not an argument. Please do better. If you'd like to discuss any Scripture, please bring it up and hopefully you'll be able to understand my arguments are against your interpretation of the Word.
13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Lk. 8:13-14 NKJ)
The second 8:13 believe for a while then fall away. Fall away from what/whom? Believe so were saved? Saved but no rewards? Believe, were saved, fall away/withdraw/rebel [from belief, from salvation]
The third 8:14 they heard. Did they believe? Did they begin to grow but never completed the production of fruit?
You tell me since you're saying I'm arguing against the Word. If you want a lighter load, explain belief for salvation re: the second soil.
Re: Heb6:
- What do you mean "if it is possible"?
- Is it possible or not?
- Is "if" a proper translation?
- You're saying that these verses are saying that if we even claim we could lose salvation this puts Christ to open shame???
- Would you like to go through these Scriptures that are speaking in the context of a rebuke for lack of growth from infancy to maturity and a heads up that God may not permit growth at some point?
- Where do you get this claim you're making?
Sure, that's what I think. As I said, please do better in your arguments.
Let's begin with any of the Scripture brought out above. Heb6 and Luke8 intrigue me.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Yes, when a gift giver gives you a gift, you have an option to receive the gift in faith or to reject it,
but why do you object to calling receiving the gift cooperating with the giver?
Yes, if you reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift,
and that lack of cooperation is on you--
which regarding the gift of salvation means condemnation.
Yes, when a gift giver gives you a gift, you have an option to receive the gift in faith or to reject it,
but why do you object to calling receiving the gift cooperating with the giver?
Yes, if you reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift,
and that lack of cooperation is on you--
which regarding the gift of salvation means condemnation.
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