Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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We are guilty because we are born functioning with a fallen nature.
We enter the world guilty of being a sinner by nature.
It is not a sin when we are tempted..
It is sin when we choose, act, give in or follow through with the temptation.

Being born with a sinful nature does not mean I'm automatically guilty of murder, or stealing, or coveting. We all sin at some point but only because we choose to.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Romans 5:12 Ephesians 2:3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
.:)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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We may have a fallen nature but which sin are we guilty of.

What law have we broken? What sin have we committed that makes us guilty of death?
Jesus was slain before the foundations of the earth. He paid for the sins of the whole world.
So, being born fallen does not automatically condemn us to hell.

What condemns man to hell is his rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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God chose Adam as the representative for the human race. That's why all died in Adam. Do you believe God has the right to choose Adam to represent mankind?
I believe that we all choose to sin which means we are all guilty before God.

Adam started the evil process and sin has been part of the human nature ever since. But I am not guilty for the sins of Adam. I have sinned and need salvation like everyone. Adam's sins are not mine.
I'm not held accountable for other people's sins.

Just because the sin of the devil has comtemniated the human race does not automatically make us guilty of choosing to sin.

I know we all need saving and we have all sinned but that is not the same as original sin.
 
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Romans 8:9-10 ~ You are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
113
Australia
Jesus was slain before the foundations of the earth. He paid for the sins of the whole world.
So, being born fallen does not automatically condemn us to hell.

What condemns man to hell is his rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin = death.

If we are guilty of sin before we choose to sin, then God is unjust.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I believe that we all choose to sin which means we are all guilty before God.

Adam started the evil process and sin has been part of the human nature ever since. But I am not guilty for the sins of Adam. I have sinned and need salvation like everyone. Adam's sins are not mine.
I'm not held accountable for other people's sins.

Just because the sin of the devil has comtemniated the human race does not automatically make us guilty of choosing to sin.

I know we all need saving and we have all sinned but that is not the same as original sin.
But Adam's sin did affect you directly...in Adam all died. The whole reason you need a Savior is because of Adam's sin. And God made that choice for you. So I'll ask again, does God have a right to make that decision on your behalf?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
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Australia
All the above verses I agree with.

I'm not debating about sin or the fact that we all sin and need salvation.
I agree that flesh is corrupted by sin

But I do not see how we are guilty of sins we have not committed. God is just.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,048
678
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Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin = death.

If we are guilty of sin before we choose to sin, then God is unjust.
If the following verse were not in the Bible, then God would be unfair...
God ended your dilemma before any man was ever born


God is fair...


All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not
been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation
of the world." Revelation 13:8​


God assumed the responsibility for our sins and took it upon Himself.
He did so, before man was even created.

God knew the fall was coming.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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All the above verses I agree with.

I'm not debating about sin or the fact that we all sin and need salvation.
I agree that flesh is corrupted by sin

But I do not see how we are guilty of sins we have not committed. God is just.
If one can believe that God accepted Jesus as a representative for mankind, why is He unjust if He assigns Adam to represent mankind?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,048
678
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All the above verses I agree with.

I'm not debating about sin or the fact that we all sin and need salvation.
I agree that flesh is corrupted by sin

But I do not see how we are guilty of sins we have not committed. God is just.
Where does it say we were guilty of sins?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
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Australia
But Adam's sin did affect you directly...in Adam all died. The whole reason you need a Savior is because of Adam's sin. And God made that choice for you. So I'll ask again, does God have a right to make that decision on your behalf?
Does God have the right to make guilty ?
Does God have the right to condemn me to death even if I have not choosen to sin?
Does God have the right to put the guilt and punishment of Adam on me before I'm born?

God can do anything except .... what is unjust, unrighteous, unholy, or evil.

Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

No evil or wickedness with the Lord.

Jas 1:13-14
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

We are not in this evil place because of God.

Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God does not have anything to do with wickedness. He does not cause or promote it in any way.

So God can not promote, cause or tempt us with Evil.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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If we are guilty of sin before we choose to sin, then God is unjust.
Sin was passed on to all, according to Scripture. There are none righteous... nope! Not one.
But I do not see how we are guilty of sins we have not committed. God is just.
We were by nature children of wrath. Anywho, you must be born again, regardless.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
113
Australia
If one can believe that God accepted Jesus as a representative for mankind, why is He unjust if He assigns Adam to represent mankind?
It isn't about who represents who.

The problem is "are we born guilty of sin or not guilty of sin"

I say not guilty until we choose to sin which makes us as guilty as Adam.

It only takes one sin

We all sin by choice so we all become like Adam, guilty.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Does God have the right to make guilty ?
Does God have the right to condemn me to death even if I have not choosen to sin?
Does God have the right to put the guilt and punishment of Adam on me before I'm born?

God can do anything except .... what is unjust, unrighteous, unholy, or evil.

Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

No evil or wickedness with the Lord.

Jas 1:13-14
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

We are not in this evil place because of God.

Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God does not have anything to do with wickedness. He does not cause or promote it in any way.

So God can not promote, cause or tempt us with Evil.
So you are saying God is unjust, because you came into the world dead in trespasses and sins, being dominated by Satan, and doomed to perdition...Ephesians 2:1-3.

Like it or not, God chose Adam to represent you and his failure and consequences fell on you too...1 Corinthians 15:21-22. H

You don't want to accept this because you believe it makes God unjust. What it actually reveals is that He is sovereign in the affairs of men.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
113
Australia
I'm not denying that I have a sinful nature, I'm not denying that I'm wretched miserable poor blind and naked. But I disagree that the two following are the same. They are difference ....

A fallen sinful nature.
&
Being guilty.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,137
1,366
113
Australia
So you are saying God is unjust, because you came into the world dead in trespasses and sins, being dominated by Satan, and doomed to perdition...Ephesians 2:1-3.

Like it or not, God chose Adam to represent you and his failure and consequences fell on you too...1 Corinthians 15:21-22. H

You don't want to accept this because you believe it makes God unjust. What it actually reveals is that He is sovereign in the affairs of men.
Does it make God unjust.
Does being sovereign allow God to be unjust.

It is more so about the nature of Jesus

Jesus was tempted in all points like you and me.
This is not possible unless He had a nature like us.

He was like you and me but He choose not to sin. He lived in the Spirit and overcome the flesh.

Not a hard thing if He was not in any way fallen.

As fallen human beings we can over come by the power of God within. That's what Jesus did as our example.

If He did not come with the same nature as you and me then He is not our example, He had a huge advantage.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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It is not a sin when we are tempted..
Man does not need to have a sin nature to be tempted.

Hebrews 4:15​
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Jesus was born without a sin nature.
He was tempted.
We are not temptable because we have a sin nature.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,037
7,201
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Does it make God unjust.
Does being sovereign allow God to be unjust.

It is more so about the nature of Jesus

Jesus was tempted in all points like you and me.
This is not possible unless He had a nature like us.

He was like you and me but He choose not to sin. He lived in the Spirit and overcome the flesh.

Not a hard thing if He was not in any way fallen.

As fallen human beings we can over come by the power of God within. That's what Jesus did as our example.

If He did not come with the same nature as you and me then He is not our example, He had a huge advantage.
That's the point...God is never unjust, but He did choose Adam to represent you and made his consequences your consequences.