Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Jeremiah 17:9 plus John 3:19-20 ~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? This is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
It will be one happy day when the deceived stop preaching that man can cure his evil heart.

 

[Rufus]

So you disagree with @rogerg then about God only comparing spiritual things with spiritual? We can compare the spiritual world with the physical world and learn spiritual truths from physical things?

We can indeed learn a great deal about Spiritual reality from Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it), since temporal reality is a foreshadow of eternal reality. However that does not mean that people like yourself can't twist and distort spiritual truth with really poor analogies. For example, the analogy you made about "gifting" someone a job and that person's response. But the bible speaks of the gift of eternal life that is given to dead people, which makes them alive unto God and, therefore, no longer separated from him and now in good standing.

Or what about the gift of physical life? On the day of your birth, I suppose you wrote God a thank you card? Or what about the parable of the Good Samaritan? Didn't the Good Samaritan give the gift of life to the crime victim he found by doing all he could to preserve that person's life?

So many of your analogies fail dismally because you refuse to believe the biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless and are in need of rescuing.

 

[Rufus]

Usual m.o. as I expected.

There was another guy years ago I had discussions with who had a similar m.o. and I finally had to tell him that his practice was to throw a bunch of _____ against the wall and expect others to clean it up. It's just a form of obfuscation to take us away from looking at and working on the actual Scripture under discussion.

Glancing through your novel, I didn't see a response to any of the Text where Paul speaks in 2Cor3 of men who [actively] turn to the Lord in the context of Paul's ministry of the Spirit, of righteousness, of the Gospel of Christ. If I missed your specific response, would you mind pointing it out to me?

(99% of the rest of the post cut so that I could actually respond to this one by keeping under the number of characters allowed.)


Hey, Mr. Bloviation, I take it that you didn't like my 9843? Wow! What a shocker...almost! You being the Chief Whiner around here don't care for much of anything, do you?

Anyhow, since you cannot address any of the points I made in that post, especially about your theory that 2Cor 4:6 only applied to Paul and Timothy in the first century. (Poor Silas gets no respect does he?) So, now you take different tack and claim that 2Cor 4 is all about sanctification? Are all the unbelievers whom Satan has blinded throughout all these many centuries living the sanctified life? And now you're going to ignore Paul's conversion experience that you previously mentioned? I could understand why....trust me! Too many parallels can be drawn between Paul's conversion experience and 2Cor 4! Paul was once DEAD, until Christ shined his Light upon him. That's what Light does! It conquers the Darkness (the graves of the spiritual dead)! It imparts Life to the soul so that the sinner is no longer dead in the black Darkness of his own being. And Paul needed to have the veil (scales) lifted from his eyes before he converted. (Horror of Horrors! Another efficacious miracle yet!)

And what makes this latest theory of yours even more laughable is that it begs the question big time. When did Paul and Timothy's sanctification begin? You might want to meditate on 2Thes 2:13 some day. You'll discover that all believers were chosen to be saved through Sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth! In this precise order! See also 1Pet 1:2. Same logical order occurs in this passage as well. Sanctification produces obedience and logically precedes being sprinkled with Christ's blood. And isn't "belief in the truth" the same thing as obeying the [Gospel] truth? At any rate, switching horses now in mid stream to make 2Cor 4 all about sanctification doesn't go very far to support your theory. In fact, you're essentially arguing in a circle because God sets apart (sanctifies) his elect, whom he foreknew in eternity, long before they're born again in temporal reality, i.e. become aware and conscious of spiritual truth and most especially their dire need for Christ to save them. And when God DRAWS people to Christ, isn't that a process, as well? Or do you think one goes to bed at night as an unbeliever and then wakes up in the morning as a bible-thumpin', Spirit-led Christian?

At any rate, you're totally helpless and hopeless. You love your worldly presuppositions and your unbiblical and unjustifiably high opinion of mankind.

 

[Rufus]

Jeremiah 17:9 plus John 3:19-20 ~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? This is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
It will be one happy day when the deceived stop preaching that man can cure his evil heart.

AND can in fact RAISE OURSELVES FROM THE DEAD. To this day, I have no idea why Lazarus had to wait around for Jesus to do his dirty work for him!

 

[Magenta]

AND can in fact RAISE OURSELVES FROM THE DEAD. To this day, I have no idea
why Lazarus had to wait around for Jesus to do his dirty work for him!

Perhaps Lazarus had passed out due to the fact that he was stinkin' to high heaven... dang it all Jesus, why did you tarry?

Oh, well, maybe, just maybe, it was to show people that they do not raise themselves from death. Only God
does that. Um, unless you are a Pelagian heretic. We have so many of them here it borders on quite amazing!

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

 

[PaulThomson]

So many of your analogies fail dismally because you refuse to believe the biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless and are in need of rescuing.

That should read, "So many of your analogies fail dismally to persuade me, because you refuse to believe my extra-biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless in their need of rescuing.

 

[HeIsHere]

That should read, "So many of your analogies fail dismally to persuade me, because you refuse to believe my extra-biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless in their need of rescuing.

The analogies are a complete fail.

 

[Magenta]

That should read, "So many of your analogies fail dismally to persuade me, because you refuse to believe my extra-biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless in their need of rescuing.

Extra Biblical? That is your forte.

Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel
of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness. When He saw the crowds, He was moved
with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Psalm 23:1

 

[Rufus]

That should read, "So many of your analogies fail dismally to persuade me, because you refuse to believe my extra-biblical presupposition that sinners are helpless in their need of rescuing.

If you're going to try to wax smart with God's gracious "gifts", then stick with the bible and Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).
I'm still waiting for your answer to my last question to you: When God gifted you with physical life, did you acknowledge that and send him a Thank You card? Or how about being born with the gift of a healthy body? Did you request that from God before seeing the light of day? Or how about His gift of a sound mind? Or what about other gifts such a naturally high I.Q.? Or what about the gift of having good parents? Or the gift of being born in a free society? You never realized, have you, how many good gifts the sons of men simply passively receive as a result of God's sovereign grace?

 

[studier]

(99% of the rest of the post cut so that I could actually respond to this one by keeping under the number of characters allowed.)

Understood. The 10k limit can be cumbersome.

your theory that 2Cor 4:6 only applied to Paul and Timothy in the first century. (Poor Silas gets no respect does he?) So, now you take different tack and claim that 2Cor 4 is all about sanctification?

99% of the rest of your post cut so I didn't have to read the normal nonsense.

Here are some of my statements re: 2Cor4:6. You can go back and pick up more via these links if you'd like. I'm highlighting and inserting a clarifying parenthetical:

So, 4:6 explains the cause for Paul’s proclaiming in 4:5. It does not explain what God does to every unbeliever as He did to Paul. There is some discussion to be had here, but it is not from your presupposition of men do nothing as Paul clearly explains in 2Cor3.

I've actually done some more reading and interpreting of the verses in 2Cor3-4 that I posted some analysis about. Here are some general points:

• I'm therefore amending my previous post.
• I don't think this (4:6) is really about conversion as much as (if at all) it is about what happens after conversion

I'll stand that 2Cor4:6 is Paul and Timothy saying God has been transforming them for years (2Cor3:18) and their knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ is [part of] the cause for their proclaiming Jesus Christ Lord. I'll also up this and say that the phrase "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is part of Paul & Timothy's transformation from glory to glory being they have come to clearly see the deity of Jesus Christ.

Since you ended the above quoted part of your post with a question mark, I'll answer it. No, you have misunderstood me or maybe just done your usual and misrepresented me.

Interwoven into 2Cor4 is the progressive sanctification to glorification part of the Gospel inserted by Paul in 2Cor3:16. They know God's NC Gospel of the Spirit the Lord is more than bringing men to Christ but transforming Christians to Christ's image and in this respect to the image of God. So, this is deeper than Satan just blinding the minds/thoughts/intellectual process/faculty of processing thought/understanding (BDAG) of men to prevent them from turning to Jesus. In the context of this letter and how Salvation pursuant to the Complete Gospel is discussed in the NC, Satan is preventing men from becoming transformed sons of God in His glorious image seen in the face of His First-Born Son - our Lord King Jesus Christ - transformed sons of God like Paul and Timothy who can clearly see and understand the deity of Jesus Christ.

So, in part, yes, Satan is hindering men from turning to Jesus, but in Paul & Timothy's letter to the Corinthians who in the transformation process - living epistles - there is more being presented here.

The issue under discussion was your assertion that God does some light shining in men's hearts to show them Christ's glory. Yes, He does but not as you assert by weakening the Gospel and thus not in the way you're asserting 2Cor4:6 says.

IMO one of the better ways to approach this is through a study of light and enlightenment.

I'll switch to another post to try to lessen my bloviating.

 

[studier]

@Rufus re: 2Cor4:6 - God shining the light of the deity of Jesus Christ:

A few Scriptures to consider re: Paul and the light:

• NKJ Acts 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
  • The Lord had commanded Paul (and Barnabas) - the Lord had placed them for a light of nations/gentiles - for them to be for Salvation as far as the farthest boundaries of the land
  • Paul is a light for the Salvation for the Gentiles
• NKJ Acts 22:6 "Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.
  • A considerable light from Heaven shined (periastraptō) around Paul
• NKJ Acts 22:9 "And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.
  • Those with Paul saw (theaomai) the light
• NKJ Acts 22:11 "And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
  • From the results of the glory of that light Paul was not seeing [well]
• NKJ Acts 26:13 "at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.
  • Paul explaining the light
• NKJ Acts26:14-18 "And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15 "So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 'But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 'I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
  • Please pay attention here:
  • The Lord:
    • Makes Paul a minister (same language as 2Cor3-4) and witness to both things he's seen and things the Lord will reveal to him later
      • Consider the light God had shone to Paul and Timoty over time re: the deity of Jesus Christ per 2Cor3:18 & 4:6.
    • Sends Paul to the Gentiles:
      • To open (anoigō) their eyes for this purpose:
        • To turn-hupostrephō (active)
          • from darkness into light
          • namely from the authority of Satan to [the authority] of God
            • For this purpose:
              • To receive release from their sins
              • And a share among the men who have been sanctified
                • by faith into Jesus
• NKJ Acts 26:22-23 "Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come-- "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
  • Paul was witnessing nothing besides what the prophets and Moses said was about to come
    • This is important for what Paul is saying in 2Cor3

Jesus Christ placed Paul to be the light for Salvation for the Gentiles
Jesus Christ made Paul a minister/servant to witness what he saw and would see from the Lord
Jesus Christ sent Paul to open the eyes of the Gentiles, so the Gentiles could turn (think of 2Cor3:16) from darkness (Satan's authority) to light (God's authority), so the Gentiles could receive release from their sins, and an inheritance among the sanctified by faith in Jesus.
Paul was witnessing nothing but what the prophets and Moses said was about to come

These same things re: light and ministry in Acts are in Paul's and Timothy's words in 2Cor.

Again, you are obliterating the power of God's Word to save people. Men's thinking is still being blinded and becoming hardened. God's Word being proclaimed and explained by His people so men can turn to the Lord combined with the Lord the Spirit convincing men of sin, righteousness & judgment is the power God has initiated in the world to save men.

 

[studier]

Here's the gospel that needs to be received. Understanding the spiritual nature of this is the need to receive it or believe it according to the scriptures. Believing the gospel saves, rejecting it condemns.
1 Cor. 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And especially since this is Paul talking to the Corinthians who he'd spent 3.5 years teaching, combined with the record we have in Acts13 where we see how was evangelizing Jews and God-fearing Gentiles in the region, Paul has made clear to all from Psalm 2 who and what "Christ" means - Jesus who died, was buried & was resurrected is YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ - YHWH's King of kings.

To receive this - to believe this - is to turn to the one with all authority in Heaven and on earth. This is not that difficult a message!

Nice posts, BTW.

 

[Rufus]

Understood. The 10k limit can be cumbersome.



99% of the rest of your post cut so I didn't have to read the normal nonsense.

Here are some of my statements re: 2Cor4:6. You can go back and pick up more via these links if you'd like. I'm highlighting and inserting a clarifying parenthetical:







I'll stand that 2Cor4:6 is Paul and Timothy saying God has been transforming them for years (2Cor3:18) and their knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ is [part of] the cause for their proclaiming Jesus Christ Lord. I'll also up this and say that the phrase "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" is part of Paul & Timothy's transformation from glory to glory being they have come to clearly see the deity of Jesus Christ.

Since you ended the above quoted part of your post with a question mark, I'll answer it. No, you have misunderstood me or maybe just done your usual and misrepresented me.

Interwoven into 2Cor4 is the progressive sanctification to glorification part of the Gospel inserted by Paul in 2Cor3:16. They know God's NC Gospel of the Spirit the Lord is more than bringing men to Christ but transforming Christians to Christ's image and in this respect to the image of God. So, this is deeper than Satan just blinding the minds/thoughts/intellectual process/faculty of processing thought/understanding (BDAG) of men to prevent them from turning to Jesus. In the context of this letter and how Salvation pursuant to the Complete Gospel is discussed in the NC, Satan is preventing men from becoming transformed sons of God in His glorious image seen in the face of His First-Born Son - our Lord King Jesus Christ - transformed sons of God like Paul and Timothy who can clearly see and understand the deity of Jesus Christ.

So, in part, yes, Satan is hindering men from turning to Jesus, but in Paul & Timothy's letter to the Corinthians who in the transformation process - living epistles - there is more being presented here.

The issue under discussion was your assertion that God does some light shining in men's hearts to show them Christ's glory. Yes, He does but not as you assert by weakening the Gospel and thus not in the way you're asserting 2Cor4:6 says.

IMO one of the better ways to approach this is through a study of light and enlightenment.

I'll switch to another post to try to lessen my bloviating.

Another nice piece of eisegesis! Where in the text does Paul qualify (as you have just done) the extent of the effectiveness of Satan's work? Where does Paul say, "Satan 'in part' has blinded unbelievers"? Or Satan has blinded some unbelievers? Or Satan has blinded many unbelievers? Or did John in 1Jn 5 limit the extent of the devil's control over the whole world? When Paul brings unbelievers into his argument, he's talking about Satan blinding those unbelievers so that they won't be able to positively respond to the Gospel. Satan, very effectively, keeps men from seeing the light of the Gospel.

And another huge error you make is glossing over God's glory. As I pointed out in the opening three paragraphs of my 9843, the Glory of God (i.e. his Holy Presence) was always among his covenant people. Paul isn't teaching something radically new. He simply expanded on the history of this Divine Presence by defining it and revealing how that Presence works in the context of the New Covenant. And since the Church is now God's temple, this view is supported by typology. No longer does God "conceal" himself behind the curtain of the Holy of Holies, making himself accessible to merely a human high priest, but rather reveals himself by his Spirit to the minds, souls and hearts of ALL his NC people. (He didn't just choose to reveal Himself to Paul and Timothy exclusively as two mere spiritual stones of this NC temple, forgetting about all the rest of the living stones that comprise God's temple today!) And this view is supported by the Creation account, for in this NC era the people of God are his New Creation. Light = Life. When God supernaturally cures his elect unbelievers from their affliction of satanic blindness by driving the darkness (blindness) out of the elect's souls, minds and hearts, that itself is tantamount to raising the dead! God is LIFE and so wherever his Spirit goes, he brings life to the dead!

As stated in my last post, by trying to make 2Cor 3-4 virtually all about sanctification doesn't help your case at all since God's salvation is a process from beginning to end. But it appears you want to ignore the starting point of the process. When did the Spirit of God start shining his Light into dark, dead souls? I say it happens at Regeneration if we are to preserve the integrity of the metaphor. Life didn't begin at the New Birth as so many think, but rather secretly and mysteriously inside the elect's heart in the same way life begins secretly and mysteriously within a woman's womb. God drawing people to Christ is another process. And what we should remember about this Divine drawing process is that people who are effectually drawn TO Christ are simultaneously drawn AWAY FROM their old life, from the "old man" within, from the ways of the world, from the power of the devil; therefore, it's no wonder at all that Paul and Peter could speak of people's salvation beginning with the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work in their hearts that would culminate (in those specific passages) with faith in the Gospel truth, which marks the New Birth (or New Creation)! Of course, the process continues on for the life of every true saint since one of God's purposes in salvation is to free saints from the power of sin in this age; and He does this by gradually transforming souls more and more into the image of Christ.

 

[studier]

Where in the text does Paul qualify (as you have just done) the extent of the effectiveness of Satan's work?

NKJ 2Cor4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Some are blinded - they don't believe - they are perishing.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (2 Cor. 3:16 NKJ)

Some turn to the Lord.

NKJ Acts 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Paul was placed as a light to the Gentiles for Salvation

NKJ Acts 26:16-18 'But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 'I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now1 send you, 18 'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

The Lord sent Paul to the Gentiles to open (anoigō) their eyes for this purpose:

• To turn-hupostrephō (active)
  • from darkness into light
  • from Satan's authority to God's authority

The turning is active on the part of man. Some turn - some don't. Looks like Paul the light the Lord placed for salvation for the Gentiles opened the eyes of some and they turned to the Lord - the Gospel gets through to some men - not to others.

Look at the several Scriptures mostly in Acts that speak of persuading men.

Seems simple.

 

[PaulThomson]

If you're going to try to wax smart with God's gracious "gifts", then stick with the bible and Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).
I'm still waiting for your answer to my last question to you: When God gifted you with physical life, did you acknowledge that and send him a Thank You card? Or how about being born with the gift of a healthy body? Did you request that from God before seeing the light of day? Or how about His gift of a sound mind? Or what about other gifts such a naturally high I.Q.? Or what about the gift of having good parents? Or the gift of being born in a free society? You never realized, have you, how many good gifts the sons of men simply passively receive as a result of God's sovereign grace?

You are falling yet again into logical fallacies, Rufus. Please, take a course, or at leat read some book on recognising logical fallacies.

You seem to be arguing that because you can name some gifts that are given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts, then all gifts must be given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts (the logical fallacy of rash generalisation). Or that because you can name some gifts that are given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts, and salvation is a gift, therefore salvation must be given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive it as a gift.

Some dogs are puppies.
Origami is a dog.
Therefore origami must be a puppy.

Some gifts are given without being being consciously received by the recipient as a gift.
Salvation is a gift.
Therefore salvation must be given without being consciously received by the recipient as a gift.

 

[fredoheaven]

And especially since this is Paul talking to the Corinthians who he'd spent 3.5 years teaching, combined with the record we have in Acts13 where we see how was evangelizing Jews and God-fearing Gentiles in the region, Paul has made clear to all from Psalm 2 who and what "Christ" means - Jesus who died, was buried & was resurrected is YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ - YHWH's King of kings.

To receive this - to believe this - is to turn to the one with all authority in Heaven and on earth. This is not that difficult a message!

Nice posts, BTW.

Hereunder is Rufus insistence to consider. I quote:

"You might want to meditate on 2Thes 2:13 some day. You'll discover that all believers were chosen to be saved through Sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth! In this precise order! See also 1Pet 1:2. Same logical order occurs in this passage as well. Sanctification produces obedience and logically precedes being sprinkled with Christ's blood. And isn't "belief in the truth" the same thing as obeying the [Gospel] truth?"


Rufus suggested a logical order, perhaps,
1. Sanctification of the Spirit
2. Belief in the truth

He seems to argue that sanctification is about being "set apart" or chosen, which precedes belief in the truth.
However, the word "and" (καὶ, kai) suggests a connection or conjunction between sanctification and belief.


This implies that these two aspects are closely linked and occur together, rather than in a specific order, hence, sanctification and belief are not separate events, but rather two sides of the same coin, and happened in an active response to the preaching of the gospel.

God bless

 

[studier]

Hereunder is Rufus insistence to consider. I quote:

"You might want to meditate on 2Thes 2:13 some day. You'll discover that all believers were chosen to be saved through Sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth! In this precise order! See also 1Pet 1:2. Same logical order occurs in this passage as well. Sanctification produces obedience and logically precedes being sprinkled with Christ's blood. And isn't "belief in the truth" the same thing as obeying the [Gospel] truth?"


Rufus suggested a logical order, perhaps,
1. Sanctification of the Spirit
2. Belief in the truth

He seems to argue that sanctification is about being "set apart" or chosen, which precedes belief in the truth.
However, the word "and" (καὶ, kai) suggests a connection or conjunction between sanctification and belief.


This implies that these two aspects are closely linked and occur together, rather than in a specific order, hence, sanctification and belief are not separate events, but rather two sides of the same coin, and happened in an active response to the preaching of the gospel.

God bless

@Rufus sees election in every jot and tittle (as they say) in the Text.

A few observations:

NKJ 2 Thess. 2:13-15 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

• Another manuscript rather than "from the beginning" says "God chose you [as] first fruits"
• As you say, the kai here is just connecting sanctification and belief. They are just coupled together. I see no sequence.
• The sanctification [of] spirit and belief [of] truth
  • The [of] can be translated several ways.
  • Some food for thought which we can with into further similar interpretation: We so habitually look at "sanctification" in the sense of God sanctifying us - setting us apart - but it also has the sense of personal dedication to the interests of a deity (BDAG). So, sanctification [of] Spirit can also mean dedication [of] spirit describing the dedication of the person, which would go along with the persons belief [of] truth.
  • "Chose" is a good translation and it can also mean to "take". It's a middle voice so it shows some personal interest or benefit for the chooser - God chose you (pl) [for himself] for salvation.
  • The preposition being translated "through" I wouldn't translate that way. It's "en" and can be translated many ways, one of which can be its marking the state or condition of the ones being chosen for salvation (they are in a dedicated and believing state), or in close association with dedication and belief, or because of/on account of dedication and belief, etc.
  • As I write this the sanctification/dedication and belief seem more and more to be parallel (which the kai can denote). Belief is paralleled in the NC with obedience making them essentially two sides of the same coin. "Dedication" seems to fit right in. I can run with this Scripturally and the first place I'd go, is back to John4:24 area where Jesus makes emphatically clear that God is seeking men who will bow in obeisance to Him "en" spirit and truth - the same words and concept Paul may well be dealing with here in 2Thess.

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

• Another thing the @Rufus Calvinistic tradition is not going to like is that the Gospel is the means/instrument God uses to call/invite/summon for salvation. This is more detail of the power God has provided in the Gospel, which that Rufus tradition IMO, at least as Rufus plays it, substantially diminishes.
• The call/invitation of the Gospel for the goal of obtaining/possessing the glory of our Lord Jesus is IMO another summary of Salvation from start to finish which is precisely what I've been attempting to make clear in discussion re: 2Cor3-4. This concept of Salvation A-Z (or better, alpha to omega) is the undercurrent or interwoven thread of much NC Scripture. IOW Jesus didn't die and ascend to just bring people in but to inevitably make adult sons for our Father. IOW Salvation is more about the Z/Omega than the A/Alpha (the advance to glorification of sons in the image of the Son and First-Born).
• Then the icing on the cake here, is Paul's command to hold-fast the "traditions" (the content of instructions) he taught, which I would put up against other traditions being aggressively put forth here, most notably by @Rufus.

Thanks for the response. I'm enjoying your input.

 

[Rufus]

You are falling yet again into logical fallacies, Rufus. Please, take a course, or at leat read some book on recognising logical fallacies.

You seem to be arguing that because you can name some gifts that are given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts, then all gifts must be given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts (the logical fallacy of rash generalisation). Or that because you can name some gifts that are given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive them as gifts, and salvation is a gift, therefore salvation must be given without the recipient being aware and able to choose to receive it as a gift.

Some dogs are puppies.
Origami is a dog.
Therefore origami must be a puppy.

Some gifts are given without being being consciously received by the recipient as a gift.
Salvation is a gift.
Therefore salvation must be given without being consciously received by the recipient as a gift.

No, I'm not arguing that! But you were arguing that very thing with your lame analogy, i.e. most gifts are physically and consciously received. But this isn't the case with Spiritual Life! We no more choose to be born from above than we chose to be born here below.

 

[Rufus]

NKJ 2Cor4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Some are blinded - they don't believe - they are perishing.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (2 Cor. 3:16 NKJ)

Some turn to the Lord.

NKJ Acts 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Paul was placed as a light to the Gentiles for Salvation

NKJ Acts 26:16-18 'But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 'I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now1 send you, 18 'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

The Lord sent Paul to the Gentiles to open (anoigō) their eyes for this purpose:

• To turn-hupostrephō (active)
  • from darkness into light
  • from Satan's authority to God's authority

The turning is active on the part of man. Some turn - some don't. Looks like Paul the light the Lord placed for salvation for the Gentiles opened the eyes of some and they turned to the Lord - the Gospel gets through to some men - not to others.

Look at the several Scriptures mostly in Acts that speak of persuading men.

Seems simple.

2Cor 4 doesn't teach that Satan blinds the minds of some men. You still insist on reading your assumptions into the text. And when men turn to the Lord then we can be sure the veil has been lifted. They're been cured of their blindness.

 

[Magenta]

Or how about His gift of a sound mind?

I think you have gone too far...

2Cor 4 doesn't teach that Satan blinds the minds of some men. You still insist on reading your assumptions into the text.
And when men turn to the Lord then we can be sure the veil has been lifted. They're been cured of their blindness.

1 John 5:19b the whole world is under the power of the evil one.

1 John 5:20