Understanding God’s election

[studier]

Neither the ESV or the AMP are considered paraphrases, which is what I used originally.

IMO the ESV is pretty good. I was a bit surprised to see what it did with Ps25:14.

The AMP in the opinion of some is a paraphrase. Others classify it differently. It is known to create problems for diligent students.

The TLB and the NLT you referenced are paraphrases. Have fun relying on them.

Also, I didn't say that I "like such translations" per se, but since I'm not an ancient bible languages scholar I find it necessary to use multiple translations (including literal translations) in order to get to the sense of any given passage. You have a better idea? Or is everyone called to be an expert (like you and PT like to wax you are) in the original languages? What about all the other teams of various language experts and the work they put into their bible translations? They're chopped liver compared to you or a PT? Only you guys have a mortal lock on the original languages?

I have whatever proficiency I have and have never referred to myself as an expert in anything. I don't even like the word "expert". I did very well in formal training and was asked to travel for the Seminary to teach Greek. There's always someone better. I don't speak for @PaulThomson but I'm comfortable that we both know more than you about this.

Different translations are for different purposes and since the Bible sells as it does a new translation can be a potential winner of a project. It doesn't mean all are good ones. Some of us think there are way too many translations which is just more cause for divisions.

Why not just accept this? If your m.o. wasn't so harsh we might have more productive discussions. You've watched too many alligators pull things into the pond. Kind of like pulling into the gutter for a brawl.

I was thinking of a point where I almost chimed in earlier than I did. You posted some kind of instruction on 2Cor4 and missed some very basic grammar and some highly important context as I recall. Maybe I'll respond to that when I get some time.

BTW, re: angels on a pin, there is still a tremendous amount of translation and interpretive work going on with the Text. There are also groups searching the globe anywhere and everywhere they may be led to find more manuscript evidence than we already have. It wasn't that long ago that some found an ancient garbage dump that had fragments of receipts and such that gave us quite a bit of understanding of how Koine Greek was actually used in common practice in Biblical times. Some of us thrive on the details.

There are many sites and services that publish or compile articles both old and new. For an easily accessible one look at Academia.edu and search around for theological articles. The ongoing work by our siblings is really quite staggering and that site is but a fraction of what's out there being done.

Feel free to rest where you are. Thank God others are still working. Many know we haven't gotten enough of it right yet.

 

[studier]

Also, I didn't say that I "like such translations" per se, but since I'm not an ancient bible languages scholar I find it necessary to use multiple translations (including literal translations) in order to get to the sense of any given passage. You have a better idea?

Again, I've commended you on some of your study efforts. FWIW I think looking at several translations is a good practice.

What you did earlier was take the ESV which suited your purpose but was obviously different than several other translations that were in substantial agreement with one another. That should have made you wonder about the ESV and do some more work or bring it up as a question. From the ESV you went to paraphrases (I'm including your ultimate use of AMP, TLB, NLT?) for backup, when the most literal were saying something very different. Also, FWIW, I wouldn't base an argument from that but can see why you do since that is what you have to glean from. Also, as I said, I can see mostly in the Hebrew where the ESV was drawing from, but it's a bit too interpretive IMO. It's bridging some gaps I'd rather see the Text actually do more literally.

 

[PaulThomson]

Jn 6:37 is crystal clear, no matter how you wish to twist and distort the plain meaning of the words with clever word salads or feats of mental gymnastics with other verses in the passage. WHOEVER comes to me, I will NEVER drive away! Not only will he never drive them away, but he will never lose any. And not only will he never lose any, but he will raise them up to life on the last day.

I wonder if you have paid enough attention to my or studier's explanation of John 6:37 that you could steel man it and accurately present our explanations of John 6:37 in your own words?

Because both studier and I agree that "WHOEVER comes to [Jesus], [He] will NEVER drive away! Not only will He never drive them away, but He will never lose any. And not only will He never lose any, but He will raise them up to life on the last day."

 

[GWH]

I wonder if you have paid enough attention to my or studier's explanation of John 6:37 that you could steel man it and accurately present our explanations of John 6:37 in your own words?

Because both studier and I agree that "WHOEVER comes to [Jesus], [He] will NEVER drive away! Not only will He never drive them away, but He will never lose any. And not only will He never lose any, but He will raise them up to life on the last day."

I wonder if y'all have paid attention to the following divinely inspired Scriptures:

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
I wonder if you have paid enough attention to my or studier's explanation of John 6:37 that you could steel man it and accurately present our explanations of John 6:37 in your own words?

Because both studier and I agree that "WHOEVER comes to [Jesus], [He] will NEVER drive away! Not only will He never drive them away, but He will never lose any. And not only will He never lose any, but He will raise them up to life on the last day."

I wonder if y'all have paid attention to the following divinely inspired Scriptures:

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

That's a lot of words to type to avoid saying, "No."

 

[PaulThomson]

I know you desperately want to turn John 6 on its head and make it say that God gives each and every person to Jesus and draws each and every person to Jesus, but to do that would be at your own peril due to the serious theological implications such a foolhardy interpretation would engender.

Why would that "engender serious theological implications", if Jesus is talking about bringing all people before Him for judgment and reward at the last day, both the good and the wicked? Which He will do, according to scripture?

 

[GWH]

PaulThomson said:
I wonder if you have paid enough attention to my or studier's explanation of John 6:37 that you could steel man it and accurately present our explanations of John 6:37 in your own words?

Because both studier and I agree that "WHOEVER comes to [Jesus], [He] will NEVER drive away! Not only will He never drive them away, but He will never lose any. And not only will He never lose any, but He will raise them up to life on the last day."



That's a lot of words to type to avoid saying, "No."

I say "Harmonize", as in the following words:

The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various/diverse biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics. The passages cited previously that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 "never drive away" does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 "I shall lose none" may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

I did not have the JN 6 verses included in this list of harmonizations on my website, so thanks for mentioning them and I will add them soon.

2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

 

[studier]

Yesterday, we looked at 2Cor 3 which talks about how the minds of the OC people of God were made "dull", consequently a "veil" remained over the hearts of the Jews 'till Paul's day, and that that veil is only removed in Christ. This "veil" metaphor Paul carries over to the next chapter when speaking of the Gospel under the New Covenant. And it's this passage that we'll now look at briefly.

Though on the surface this reads fairly well, it ignores (here at least – noting there was a “yesterday”) some very important instruction in 2Cor3.

2 Cor 4:1-5
4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they CANNOT see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
NIV

This is another example of why I don’t use the NIV. You have emphasized the word “CANNOT” but the Text does not specifically say they CANNOT see. More later.

If there's any passage in scripture that teaches that the Gentiles are no different whatsoever from the Jews (in spite of some FWs' attempt to insinuate or infer the opposite), it would be this passage. The veil that blinded the OC Jews in the previous chapter also blinds all unbelieving peoples in this NC dispensation.

Maybe he’s talking about Jews and Gentiles but he’s talking about the hardened minds of OC Israel, the veil that remains (and some additional interesting language about the veil) when Moses is read.

But in this text that's before us, Paul reveals the source of the blindness behind the veil. That source, of course, is Satan. And apparently, Satan is very good at what he does because that blindness he causes is irreversible by any mere mortal! As we're going to see, Paul is not going to exhort the Church or his original audience that they can overcome their blindness or heal their blindness through self-effort. He's not going to tell us that all we have to do is exercise the "mighty power" of our God-given "freewill" in order to heal ourselves. Instead, he told the Corinthians and

As I said, you’ve ignored in 2Cor3 an important matter about what the unbelieving man does. More later

2 Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," MADE HIS light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
NIV

There’s some basic grammar you’re missing here and there’s a translation issue.

• The verse begins with “because” not “for” and there is a difference.
• By splitting this verse from the previous ones you are missing what 4:6 actually ties to and is explaining.

You’ve also skipped over some very important foundation. I’ll put it together at the end.

I have consistently maintained in this thread, and in others on this forum as well, that God's work of salvation in the soul of sinners is nothing less than a supernatural work. No sinner participates in, or helps with, or cooperates or facilitates that work of God. God's remedy for man's blindness (darkness) is to graciously give his chosen ones HIS light; for only HIS light can "give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ". Paul here very clearly likens the light that shines in believers' hearts as being the light that shined "out of darkness" during the the first day of creation. In Gen 1:4 we are told that the light was "good" and that God separated the light from the darkness. And this makes sense, for how could darkness which represents evil ever be compatible with light which represents everything that is good? God Himself is light, and in Him there is no darkness (1Jn 1:5)! The light that God shined into the universe on the first day was the light of his own majestic and incomparable glory. And this is what God does for all unbelievers who are his elect! He separates THEM from their own darkness (Eph 5:8) by flooding the darkness of their hearts, minds and souls with the light of the knowledge of his own glory. This saving knowledge is the precursor to saving faith! For the Christian Faith is neither blind or irrational. Every believer's faith has always found its ground in a true knowledge of God, which itself is the very essence of eternal life. This kind of spiritual knowledge is the catalyst for faith.

Highlighting for later comment.

And where in scripture do we see anyone curing themselves of blindness!? We all came into this world as blind as the man Jesus healed in John 9. Did the blind man in that chapter help Jesus cure him by some act of his "freewill"? But those of us who were once cursed by this blindness had to also overcome an additional obstacle other than the evil one. The apostle John teaches us:

John 3:19-21
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men LOVED darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil HATES the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
NIV

Your presupposition is causing you to miss that there are two types of men discussed here:

• Some men loved darkness and hate light because their works are evil
• Some men live by the truth and come to the light
  • Why do you skip highlighting and dealing with this part? Presuppositions are quite the thing.

It's no wonder at all that Paul told Timothy that the grace of the Lord was poured out upon him abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ (1Tim 1:4). So, in addition to unbelievers being blinded by the Prince of Darkness, their hostile minds and hearts hate Christ, hate the light and love the darkness. Yet, FWs tell us that the power of man's "freewill" can overcome these obstacles AND MORE to faith and repentance!

Continual rhetoric misstating what others actually think.

cont'd

 

[studier]

@Rufus re: 2Cor3-4 cont'd

Firstly, why do you skip some of the foundational context of 2Cor4? I’ll begin in 2Cor3

For clarity I’m going to focus on Paul and will later pick up Timothy (Silvanus is also mentioned but I’m not focusing on this):

3:6 God made Paul sufficient/qualified [as a] servant/minister of the NC of [the] Spirit – the Spirit gives life

• This is important for 4:6

There were 2 ministries/administrations going on in Paul’s time:

• Moses’ ministry:
  • Written on stones 3:7
  • A ministry of death 3:7
  • Glorious but passing away 3:7
  • Condemnation 3:9a
  • Moses veiled his face so Israel could not stare at the end of his ministry’s glory that was passing away 3:13
  • The minds/thoughts of [some of] Israel were hardened – the same veil remained and was being laid on their hearts when the OC (Moses) was read 3:14a, 3:15
• The Spirit’s ministry:
  • The spirit gives life 3:6
  • Will be more glorious than Moses’ ministry 3:8
  • A greater, remaining ministry of righteousness 3:9b, 3:10b, 3:11b
  • Paul employed much boldness because he had hope/confidence in the NC ministry of the life-giving Spirit 3:12
  • The Mosaic veil is made powerless in/by Christ – the veil is removed when [a man] turns to the Lord 3:14b, 3:16
  • The Lord is the Spirit – where the Spirit the Lord [is] Freedom [is]! 3:17
  • Christians:
    • Have had their face unveiled when they actively turned to Christ and became Christian
    • Are looking at/contemplating the Lord’s glory as in a mirror
    • Are being transformed into the same image
      • from glory into glory
      • As from the Lord the Spirit

Please note that the only mention of conversion is when a man actively turns to the Lord. When a man turns to the Lord, the veil is wiped out & removed, the new Christian has Freedom in Christ, is contemplating the Lord’s glory as in a mirror, and is being transformed into the same image.

Then 2Cor4 Paul’s ministry of the NC life-giving Spirit and all that the Christian has in Christ when he turns to the Lord:

• Paul has this ministry – he has received mercy – he does not lose heart – he has renounced shameful hidden things – he is not walking in cleverness – he is not falsifying/adulterating God’s Word/Message – in God’s presence he is disclosing the truth and thereby presenting himself to each conscience of men 4:1-2
  • Even if Paul’s Gospel (God’s Word/Message) has been veiled – it has [only] been veiled in the [men] who are perishing = those unbelieving men whose minds/thoughts were blinded (see above highlighted info under Moses ministry 3:14a, 3:15) by the god of that age so the light/enlightenment of the Gospel of the glory of Christ – who is the image of God – does not shine forth 4:3-4
  • To make clear 4:1-4: because [the Creator] God shone in Paul’s heart toward the goal of enlightenment of the knowledge of God’s glory in Christ’s face 4:6 - Paul says he is proclaiming Christ Jesus Lord – he is not proclaiming himself – on behalf of Jesus he is the slave of those he proclaims Christ Jesus Lord to 4:5

As I understand you, you’ve made this an example of how God according to your highlighted NIV MADE HIS light shine in our hearts. In light of your presuppositions this must be God dragging sinners to salvation as you say “No sinner participates in, or helps with, or cooperates or facilitates that work of God.”

Yet in the clear context of this section of Scripture:

• Paul says [unbelievers] actively turn to the Lord – this does NOT say they are passively turned to the Lord by someone or something else. This is human response to the enlightenment contained in the Gospel of Christ’s Glory. If we're going to discuss human choice and response, we can do so right here.
• Because of what God did in their hearts to enlighten them of the knowledge of Christ’s glory 4:6 – Paul and Timothy are proclaiming Christ Jesus Lord 4:5
  • So, 4:6 explains the cause for Paul’s proclaiming in 4:5. It does not explain what God does to every unbeliever as He did to Paul. There is some discussion to be had here, but it is not from your presupposition of men do nothing as Paul clearly explains in 2Cor3.
    • Going back to 3:6: Paul says God made them qualified as ministers of the NC ministry of the Spirit. 4:6 explains how.
    • If we want to see the miracle that took place with Paul, we can read in Acts about the Lord’s shining a great light at Paul and explaining who He is. Paul later taught Timothy per 2Tim2
• It is Paul’s proclamation of God’s Word/Message – the truth – the enlightening Gospel – that enlightens men – God is shining the enlightenment/light of the Gospel to enlighten the hearts and minds of men through men to men.

You’re forcing the language to go beyond what it says. The NIV is not helping you read this Text accurately.

You’re also negating what the Text clearly says in context about [some] men actively turning to the Lord. God enlightens with His Gospel and [some] men respond – they turn to the Lord. Your reference to John3 is helpful when both types of men are considered.

God very specifically enlightened men like Paul in the first century. He graced Paul with a great light, with His audible voice, with the enlightening explanation of who He is. His enlightening Gospel message has been proclaimed since then.

You seem intent on lessening the power and light contained in God’s Word – God’s Message – God’s Gospel of the glory of Christ Jesus Lord – the NC ministry of the life-giving Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

Retreat back to theo. When can't deal with what Scripture actually says, retreat to m.o.

The fact is that Jesus was very precise about true friendship with Him and that precision places qualifications on all of us, you included, even though you shake it off with the common and immature escape hatch - oh, we can't be perfect. Then we have to go through the Biblical concept of perfection/completion and maturity to show it's really not the escape that people use for self-comfort and excuse for bad behavior. And, no, I'm not speaking of sinless perfection.

If and when you get the time or additional interest, see how limited the concept of friendship in the OC is. It helps provide some insight that this friendship is not just bantered around as if it's a common thing. IMO the way Jesus bookends the concept should make all of us more cautious of how we treat one another.

You're stuck in the OC era. Look at friendship through NC lens and its unilateral promises. First, we have the promise of God effectually instilling into his chosen people the Fear of Himself which guarantees His people will never depart from Him, and then we have the unilateral promise of spiritual circumcision made by God's hands that guarantees that his people will love Him with all their heart and all their soul so that they may live! Are really going to argue that the faithful and lovers of God are not his friends!?

God is FOR his elect and not against them and this is how He can graciously give them all things and why nothing in this universe can separate God's elect from his love. But how can this be if his elect are his enemies!? ENEMIES are what we once WERE -- but now God has befriended us by reconciling us unto himself (Rom 5:10; Col 1:21, etc.). God, by his power, has sovereignly, graciously and effectually given his people EVERYTHING they need for godly living (2Pet 1:3-4).

This whole discussion started with my observation of Jn 6:37b in which Jesus said that all that the Father gives him, He will never drive/cast away. Driving or Casting away is reserved strictly for God's enemies or the enemies of his people -- both in the OT and the NT. Clearly, this text implies that the Son will never drive his Father's elect away because they are destined to be reconciled to the Father, which is one of the many end results of divine drawing. And since reconciled, then no longer enemies. So...what you have to show from scripture is the spiritual category the reconciled are in, if they cannot be characterized as God's friends. What is the third option?

 

[studier]

You're stuck in the OC era.

Sure, what I posted from John15 shows I'm stuck in the OC. Obeying Him and living out love for one another has no practical meaning in this era, I suppose...

All done with this discussion, thanks. Jesus in J15 is clear enough for me. There's more He says, but you can search it out yourself if interested. The fact that it took you several posts to note a single Scripture that actually uses the word "friend" translated properly is telling enough that you should be thinking about making empty allegations. I don't think you have such a filter.

 

[Kroogz]

I wonder if y'all have paid attention to the following divinely inspired Scriptures:

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

The Irony? Many of these verses are about the "loss of salvation" crowd.

THE FAITH. ......Has no death. No condemnation. Eternal life. The seal.

Any other faith is cut off. Vanity. Fallen from grace.....Doesn't consider the kindness and love of God.

Saved as if through fire.

 

[Rufus]

Retreat back to the m.o. When can't deal with what Scripture actually says, retreat to m.o.

The fact is that Jesus was very precise about true friendship with Him and that precision places qualifications on all of us, you included, even though you shake it off with the common and immature escape hatch - oh, we can't be perfect. Then we have to go through the Biblical concept of perfection/completion and maturity to show it's really not the escape that people use for self-comfort and excuse for bad behavior. And, no, I'm not speaking of sinless perfection.

If and when you get the time or additional interest, see how limited the concept of friendship in the OC is. It helps provide some insight that this friendship is not just bantered around as if it's a common thing. IMO the way Jesus bookends the concept should make all of us more cautious of how we treat one another.

It appears you do not understand the unilateral promises of the New Covenant. God's efficacious grace assures all true disciples of Christ will love him, obey him and never depart from Him. What more can a friend do!? In fact, it appears that the core benefit to the godly disposition of the Fear of the Lord that God places into his elect's hearts is that they shun, avoid, turn away from evil and become lovers of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

But I'm glad you're not a fan of Perfectionism in this age, especially since neither Abraham or Moses were sinless; yet, they were still considered by God to be his friends.

 

[studier]

It appears you do not understand the unilateral promises of the New Covenant. God's efficacious grace assures all true disciples of Christ will love him, obey him and never depart from Him. What more can a friend do!? In fact, it appears that the core benefit to the godly disposition of the Fear of the Lord that God places into his elect's hearts is that they shun, avoid, turn away from evil and become lovers of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

But I'm glad you're not a fan of Perfectionism in this age, especially since neither Abraham or Moses were sinless; yet, they were still considered by God to be his friends.

The more I read you the more it seems all you really have is empty rhetoric.

 

[Kroogz]

God very specifically enlightened men like Paul in the first century. He graced Paul with a great light, with His audible voice, with the enlightening explanation of who He is. His enlightening Gospel message has been proclaimed since then.

You seem intent on lessening the power and light contained in God’s Word – God’s Message – God’s Gospel of the glory of Christ Jesus Lord – the NC ministry of the life-giving Spirit.

Acts 26:14
And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

The Lord had been after Paul for a long time. We just see the brick wall The Lord Jesus used.

I use Paul and the calvies as an analogy. If the Lord would give em a good slap........They have tons of knowledge to ADVANCE His Gospel, rather than hinder it at every turn.

 

[Magenta]

Paul's gospel

Why do you call it that? Paul calls it "our gospel" in the verse you reference.

Also my apologies as I did not mean to edit out as much as your post is I did, but I'm on my phone and it's hard to see everything all at once.

 

[Magenta]

The more I read you the more it seems all you really have is empty rhetoric.

You are such a hypocrite it's hard to take you seriously.

 

[Kroogz]

The more I read you the more it seems all you really have is empty rhetoric.

That is the redeeming quality compared to the REAL message he and his followers try to push.

 

[Magenta]

This is another example of why I don’t use the NIV. You have emphasized the word “CANNOT” but the Text does not specifically say they CANNOT see. More later.

But there are verses that say the natural man cannot hear, cannot comprehend... The natural man is defined as darkness itself which cannot comprehend the light. Jesus specifically says He came to open the eyes of blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. Do you only read that literally as in the physical sense? In another post you say that when someone turns to Christ, the veil is removed ... and you're talking about this veil being on their face. Why do you say the veil is on their face?

 

[studier]

That is the redeeming quality compared to the REAL message he and his followers try to push.

That's a sad commentary.