Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Right, but if grace is a free gift, then the "through faith" simply cannot be our faith.
In fact, since grace is a free gift is by Christ, then the faith is Christ's faith.
They want to believe the righteousness they possess was born of themselves.


Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth below; for the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment, and its people will die like gnats. But My salvation will last forever, and My righteousness will never fail.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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2 Peter 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. Acts 13:48 all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Acts 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6:37a Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me. Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that He Who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion. Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him. Romans 12:3b think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you. 2 Timothy 2:25b hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. Isaiah 65:1 “I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me." God foreknew, chose, predestined, and saved us.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Righteousness Of Christ ~ “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We put on the righteousness of Christ.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Still waiting for a paraphrase that says what you nbelieve rather than what I believe, since we both believe the verses as they appear in the KJV.
Oh my! Okay, what I believe is that salvation is completely and in all ways a gift exclusively provided by Christ as Savior, to include faith - the result of which was grace given freely to His elect. Nothing is nor can be provided by it receipients in any way. Clear?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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2 Peter 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. Acts 13:48 all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Acts 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6:37a Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me. Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that He Who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion. Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him. Romans 12:3b think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you. 2 Timothy 2:25b hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. Isaiah 65:1 “I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me." God foreknew, chose, predestined, and saved us.
Perfect verse choice, Magenta. Now, question is: can they hear it?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Oh my! Okay, what I believe is that salvation is completely and in all ways a gift exclusively provided by Christ as Savior, to include faith - the result of which was grace given freely to His elect. Nothing is nor can be provided by it receipients in any way. Clear?
If something can be a gift and completely and in all ways a gift, that implies that there can be things that are a gifts, but are not completely and in all ways gifts. What in the verses indicates that salvation must necessarily be a gift that is completely and in all ways a gift?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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If something can be a gift and completely and in all ways a gift, that implies that there can be things that are a gifts, but are not completely and in all ways gifts. What in the verses indicates that salvation must necessarily be a gift that is completely and in all ways a gift?
"completely and in all ways" was added only for emphasis.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Perfect verse choice, Magenta. Now, question is: can they hear it?
Those not in Christ cannot hear, and this is explicitly stated in the Bible, and yet I was told recently that what Jesus said about people not being able to hear only applied to the Jews of his Day & Age, which is quite false given what else is said of the Natural man, right up to and including the fact that Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. I am on my phone at work so I cannot navigate away to find the verse but I did post it within the last week and I believe I even made a panel displaying it...

People claiming that everybody can hear is just simply wrong given that hearing must encompass comprehension. We are also explicitly told that the gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing. The natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. People do not make a moral decision to decide to believe that which is foolishness to them. Saying such things is foolishness itself.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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QUOTE="PaulThomson, post: 5462114, member: 327121"]I love God because He has proved Himself loveable. So, I believe that makes me one of the called and chosen/elect too. Even if we disagree on whether God loves the rest of humanity as much as he loves me. [/QUOTE]

I wonder how Jesus could have ever loved anyone whom he never knew (Mat 7:23)...
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I know you added it. My question stands.
What in the verses indicates that salvation must necessarily be a gift that is completely and in all ways a gift?
[Rom 5:17 KJV] 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

We don't need to keep going back and forth over the same ground. I think at this point we've pretty much exhausted it.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Those not in Christ cannot hear, and this is explicitly stated in the Bible, and yet I was told recently that what Jesus said about people not being able to hear only applied to the Jews of his Day & Age, which is quite false given what else is said of the Natural man, right up to and including the fact that Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. I am on my phone at work so I cannot navigate away to find the verse but I did post it within the last week and I believe I even made a panel displaying it...

People claiming that everybody can hear is just simply wrong given that hearing must encompass comprehension. We are also explicitly told that the gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing. The natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. People do not make a moral decision to decide to believe that which is foolishness to them. Saying such things is foolishness itself.
I couldn't agree more with you, Magenta. But I guess there's some of the old hope springing eternal in the trying.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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That is very good because I agree this "unbiblical system" of redemption needs to be repudiated at every turn, so if you are energized in that pursuit that is a good thing.
You and other FWs remind me of this text in the OT:

Jer 6:13c-14
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.

14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.

'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

NIV

There truly isn't anything new under the sun, is there? Nothing has changed with human nature over the course of these millennia.

Today, we have "prophets and priests" within the Church doing the exact same thing! The human condition is no where near as bad as scripture portrays it, is it? Who is blind since birth? Or deaf since birth? And everyone knows that freedom still abounds with prisoners -- with those enslaved to sin, the flesh, the devil, the world. The bible just uses an exorbitant amount of hyperbole when talking about the human condition, so there's nothing to fret. There's a great deal of spiritual soundness left in the Dead, in spite of what Isaiah said! All the dead have to do is say "freewill, freewill" , when there is no such thing. It's easy peasy to believe and repent! Just make that choice!
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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You and other FWs remind me of this text in the OT:

Jer 6:13c-14
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.

14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.

'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

NIV
Projection.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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"Projection", you say!? I fully understand the "wound" of sinners, and it's nowhere close to yours or any other FWer! It's much more in line with another prophet's understanding:

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head

there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.

NIV

What part of this passage can't you understand? (Rhetorical question, so need to reply.)
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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You and other FWs remind me of this text in the OT:

Jer 6:13c-14
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.

14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.

'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

NIV
The calvies.....I don't need to dress the wound, they are dead. Nothing to see or say here.

Just sit back and revel in my special place.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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[Rom 5:17 KJV] 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

We don't need to keep going back and forth over the same ground. I think at this point we've pretty much exhausted it.
Okay, if you are not prepared to give a paraphrase of those verses to show us how you derive your meaning from them, I will.

Another word for giving is dedicating.

Rom. 5:17 All humans who inherit Adam's physical DNA were decreed mortal as a result of Adam's sin, and so became defeated by sin in life through their subjection to death, and their fear of succumbing eventually to death. But the effects of Jesus sacrifice were far more extensive and consequential than the fallout from Adam's sin. Those that receive Jesus Christ's spiritual DNA, that is, the abundance of grace to empower one to live overcoming sin, power imparted by the Holy Spirit, and the blessing of having all our sins forgiven so that we are morally clean before God as far as God is concerned, in their lives are able to defeat sin and the fear associated with anticipating death, through their union with the one man, Jesus Christ.

2 Tim. 1:9 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
God has saved us, delivering us from sin and death and through the preaching of the gospel and has called us with a holy calling through the gospel, to be His Christ-like representatives/vice-regents in the world. This salvation and invitation to Christ-likeness and vice-regency was not extended only to those who were the cream of humanity in terms of their works, but according to His will/purpose that none should perish, and according to his grace, the invitation to deliverance and Christlikeness was extended to all humans, not just us. The giving of this grace being experienced now by us, the church, was not just a recently devised fix God thought of and gave to us at Pentecost, but this grace has always been in Christ, and was provided for the church well ahead of time, before very ancient times (pro kronOn aiOniOn). In fact, this grace was dedicated to the church when Christ was dedicated to be sacrificed for the world to make the assembly of the church possible, even before creation.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Right, but if grace is a free gift, then the "through faith" simply cannot be our faith. In fact, since grace is a free gift is by Christ,
then the faith is Christ's faith.
An implication missing from the discussion is that faith is nonmeritorious will that either accepts God's free grace or rejects it since God does not cram the gift down our throats. Thus, saving faith or acceptance of God's Word/Will may be viewed as cooperation with the "co" not meaning salvation is via faithless works.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
4,189
704
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An implication missing from the discussion is that faith is nonmeritorious will that either accepts God's free grace or rejects it since God does not cram the gift down our throats. Thus, saving faith or acceptance of God's Word/Will may be viewed as cooperation with the "co" not meaning salvation is via faithless works.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.