Understanding God’s election

[GWH]

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree with what you posted and bolded, and would you agree that:

God's Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (GL 5:22)

God's Son suffered for the sake of saving humanity (PHP 1:29)

GRFS is faith in Jesus as Christ and Lord (JN 6:29)

God loves every natural soul and thus enables all to repent and seek Him (1CR 2:14 & 3:1,16, 4:1&14, cf. 1TM 2:3-4)

 

[studier]

"Projection", you say!? I fully understand the "wound" of sinners, and it's nowhere close to yours or any other FWer! It's much more in line with another prophet's understanding:

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

What part of this passage can't you understand? (Rhetorical question, so need to reply.)

I'm sure at this point you'd like to have your say without answers, because you've been getting your hat handed to you. We've recently seen your take on all of mankind:

The biblical view is that God makes the difference, not vile, filthy, depraved, God-hating, Christ-hating, knowledge-hating, wisdom-hating, God-reviling, world-loving, self-loving, pleasure-loving, money-loving, darkness-loving children of the devil.

Do a little work on the flip-side:

18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." (1 Ki. 19:18 NKJ)

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life "? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
(Rom. 11:2-4 NKJ)

Simply put, from Abel (by faith per Heb11) on there have always been those who did not bow to the enemy, those who did not reject God consciousness, those awaiting Messiah when He came who did receive Him and those who actively turn to the Lord in response to the Gospel.

Remove the blinders and see both sides of the story. Hopefully you still have the capacity. Shirley it must be there somewhere like a grain of mustard seed.

 

[studier]

An implication missing from the discussion is that faith is nonmeritorious will that either accepts God's free grace or rejects it since God does not cram the gift down our throats. Thus, saving faith or acceptance of God's Word/Will may be viewed as cooperation with the "co" not meaning salvation is via faithless works.

A discussion of what Faith actually is and includes, is typically missing. Good initiating. Interesting proactive clarity on "co" of cooperation.

 

[rogerg]

I agree with what you posted and bolded, and would you agree that:

God's Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (GL 5:22)

God's Son suffered for the sake of saving humanity (PHP 1:29)

GRFS is faith in Jesus as Christ and Lord (JN 6:29)

God loves every natural soul and thus enables all to repent and seek Him (1CR 2:14 & 3:1,16, 4:1&14, cf. 1TM 2:3-4)

No, I can't agree with you on that.
I believe they are applicable only to those whom God had chosen for salvation - His elect.
As the verses I provided demonstrate, faith and belief come from/by God alone, but without question, He does not do so for everyone.
Why? Because true faith and belief come from salvation. Those who do not receive faith/belief, do not, because God chose not
to give it to them, because He did not choose to save them. Were it otherwise, salvation then would be by our works not by
God's grace. However, scripture is clear that salvation is only obtained through God's grace - it isn't by both grace and works. So, for grace to be grace, election unto salvation, must be its basis.

 

[GWH]

No, I can't agree with you on that.
I believe they are applicable only to those whom God had chosen for salvation - His elect.
As the verses I provided demonstrate, faith and belief come from/by God alone, but without question, He does not do so for everyone.
Why? Because true faith and belief come from salvation. Those who do not receive faith/belief, do not, because God chose not
to give it to them, because He did not choose to save them. Were it otherwise, salvation then would be by our works not by
God's grace. However, scripture is clear that salvation is only obtained through God's grace - it isn't by both grace and works. So, for grace to be grace, election unto salvation, must be its basis.

Re "No, I can't agree with you on that.": Well, that is unfortunate, although the antecedent for "that" is unclear.

Do you not believe:

1. God's Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (GL 5:22)?

2. God's Son suffered for the sake of saving humanity (PHP 1:29)?

3. GRFS is faith in Jesus as Christ and Lord (JN 6:29)?

4. God loves every natural soul and thus enables all to repent and seek Him (1CR 2:14 & 3:1,16, 4:1&14, cf. 1TM 2:3-4)?

Your reply indicated that the only point you find disagreeable is the teaching that God loves everyone--but why?!

IOW, 5. Why does God not choose to save/grace everyone?

 

[rogerg]

Re "No, I can't agree with you on that.": Well, that is unfortunate, although the antecedent for "that" is unclear.

Do you not believe:

1. God's Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (GL 5:22)?

2. God's Son suffered for the sake of saving humanity (PHP 1:29)?

3. GRFS is faith in Jesus as Christ and Lord (JN 6:29)?

4. God loves every natural soul and thus enables all to repent and seek Him (1CR 2:14 & 3:1,16, 4:1&14, cf. 1TM 2:3-4)?

Your reply indicated that the only point you find disagreeable is the teaching that God loves everyone--but why?!

IOW, 5. Why does God not choose to save/grace everyone?

Sorry, the "that" was referring to the complete post.
The answer to your question is no, I do not believe conclusions you've drawn above are correct.
I thought I had already explained the why. Briefly, it is that God's blessings in the spiritual sense, were
only intended and given to those He had elected unto salvation, not to everyone. So, in the spiritual sense, He does NOT love every living soul and does NOT enable them to repent and seek Him. No one, of themselves, can or will repent because true repentance is to trust in Christ as Savior and natural, unsaved man, is incapable of doing so because they are not indwelled with the Holy Spirit. God's election unto salvation, was made before the foundation of the world, but as to why God choose whom He chose, He didn't share with us, only that it was His choice to make based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure. Since it was He who alone brought forth salvation and that no one deserves it, He owes no explanation to anyone regarding His choices. Those who receive it, receive it, not because of anything they have done, but only by God's exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ alone.

BTW for your point 1, those are the Spirit's fruit, not what He is.

 

[Rufus]

Projection.

"Projection", you say!? I fully understand the "wound" of sinners, and it's nowhere close to yours or any other FWer! It's much more in line with another prophet's understanding:

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

What part of this passage can't you understand? (Rhetorical question, so need to reply.)

The calvies.....I don't need to dress the wound, they are dead. Nothing to see or say here.

Just sit back and revel in my special place.

Of course, you don't. You are so much different by infinite degrees than the ancient Israelities. You never had any wounds or welts or open sores on your soul.

 

[Rufus]

An implication missing from the discussion is that faith is nonmeritorious will that either accepts God's free grace or rejects it since God does not cram the gift down our throats. Thus, saving faith or acceptance of God's Word/Will may be viewed as cooperation with the "co" not meaning salvation is via faithless works.

God only "crams" the gift down the throats of helpless people. He would never do that with strong, self-sustaining, self-sufficient types. After all, Christ did not come to call the righteous to faith and repentance, only [helpless] sinners.

 

[studier]

"Projection", you say!? I fully understand the "wound" of sinners, and it's nowhere close to yours or any other FWer! It's much more in line with another prophet's understanding:

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

What part of this passage can't you understand? (Rhetorical question, so need to reply.)





Of course, you don't. You are so much different by infinite degrees than the ancient Israelities. You never had any wounds or welts or open sores on your soul.

Don't you ever get tired of these lame accusations? You don't seriously think those who interpret Scripture differently than your chosen tradition don't know what they've been and by Grace have been and are being progressively saved from, do you? Honestly, what's the matter with you?

I refer you to the last section of #9,982. Shirley, ignoring such things and falling back on your lame accusations is repetitive weakness in argument.

 

[PaulThomson]

An implication missing from the discussion is that faith is nonmeritorious will that either accepts God's free grace or rejects it since God does not cram the gift down our throats. Thus, saving faith or acceptance of God's Word/Will may be viewed as cooperation with the "co" not meaning salvation is via faithless works.

What do you mean by "a free gift"? Where does scripture describe grace as a free gift? Is every instance in the Bible of grace/unmerited favour also a free gift ?

If I go to buy a new fridge which costs $1200 retail, and the dealer sees I am finding it hard to part with my cash and offers to sell it to me at the wholesale price, as a favour to me, which part of that deal is unmerited favour ? Which part of the deal is a free gift ?

Does some transaction no longer involve unmerited favour, if both participants are required to contribute something to make the deal happen ?

I'm trying to think of examples in scripture where grace was more like the fridge purchase at an underserved discount, rather than a completely free gift. And other examples where the gift was absolutely free, rather than undeservedly generous. Maybe posters can suggest examples of either.

I would also question whether faith is non-meritorious.

Rom 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Gal 3:6
So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend.

Three times we are told that Abraham's faith was credited/reckoned/elogisthE to Abraham as righteousness. Logizomi is a bookkeeping/ accounting term for putting values in either a debit or credit column. Abraham's faith was put in the righteousness register in the credit column. That sounds meritorious to me.

 

[Rufus]

I'm sure at this point you'd like to have your say without answers, because you've been getting your hat handed to you. We've recently seen your take on all of mankind:



Do a little work on the flip-side:

18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." (1 Ki. 19:18 NKJ)

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life "? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
(Rom. 11:2-4 NKJ)

Simply put, from Abel (by faith per Heb11) on there have always been those who did not bow to the enemy, those who did not reject God consciousness, those awaiting Messiah when He came who did receive Him and those who actively turn to the Lord in response to the Gospel.

Remove the blinders and see both sides of the story. Hopefully you still have the capacity. Shirley it must be there somewhere like a grain of mustard seed.

Wow! More pearls of wisdom from our wanna-be guru, as though most of us don't know that God has always "reserved" a remnant for himself BY HIS GRACE! Heck...anyone with a 1/2 a pea brain can see God did that very thing with Eve in Gen 3.

Even Rom 11:2 QUALIFIES his grace, for the text says that God has not cast away HIS people whom he [fore]knew in eternity. On the last day, Jesus will only cast away those whom he never knew (Mat 7:23). (And methinks there's a pretty decent chance that none of those condemned were ever "His people" either.)

Lastly, your sloppy exegesis 1Ki 19 doesn't allow you to see that the text says that God RESERVED 7,000 for himself. The text doesn't say that 7,000 in Israel reserved God for themselves! If you could only quit blindly adding things to God's Word with your eisegesis, you might one day actually see what passages are truly saying. But you obviously are powerless to remove your own blinders, so you might want to seek the Lord for real healing.

 

[Rufus]

Don't you ever get tired of these lame accusations? You don't seriously think those who interpret Scripture differently than your chosen tradition don't know what they've been and by Grace have been and are being progressively saved from, do you? Honestly, what's the matter with you?

I refer you to the last section of #9,982. Shirley, ignoring such things and falling back on your lame accusations is repetitive weakness in argument.

If FWs really understood what what Isaiah was teaching about the spiritual condition of mankind, no one here would be boasting about their "freewill" choices, or how the absence of "freewill" turns men into robots, or how that absence would turn God into a dictatorial monster, etc, etc.

You seem to always conveniently forget that in FWT, it is the sinner who effectuates his own salvation by his "freewill" choice.

 

[GWH]

Sorry, the "that" was referring to the complete post.
The answer to your question is no, I do not believe conclusions you've drawn above are correct.
I thought I had already explained the why. Briefly, it is that God's blessings in the spiritual sense, were
only intended and given to those He had elected unto salvation, not to everyone. So, in the spiritual sense, He does NOT love every living soul and does NOT enable them to repent and seek Him. No one, of themselves, can or will repent because true repentance is to trust in Christ as Savior and natural, unsaved man, is incapable of doing so because they are not indwelled with the Holy Spirit. God's election unto salvation, was made before the foundation of the world, but as to why God choose whom He chose, He didn't share with us, only that it was His choice to make based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure. Since it was He who alone brought forth salvation and that no one deserves it, He owes no explanation to anyone regarding His choices. Those who receive it, receive it, not because of anything they have done, but only by God's exceedingly great mercy and grace through Jesus Christ alone.

BTW for your point 1, those are the Spirit's fruit, not what He is.

Well I caution against saying that God hates anyone because that insult abuts blasphemy and is condemned by 1JN 4:8, 1TM 2:3-4 and much more Scripture.

 

[GWH]

God only "crams" the gift down the throats of helpless people. He would never do that with strong, self-sustaining, self-sufficient types. After all, Christ did not come to call the righteous to faith and repentance, only [helpless] sinners.

If they seek help, yes.

 

[Rufus]

If they seek help, yes.

Oh...so the Good Samaritan should have waited upon the half dead crime victim he stumbled upon to ask for help before the Samaritan took matters into his hand to help the poor guy out? I suppose in your world, the Samaritan wasn't such a good guy doing a good deed after all, was he?

 

[HeIsHere]

You and other FWs remind me of this text in the OT:

Jer 6:13c-14
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.
NIV

There truly isn't anything new under the sun, is there? Nothing has changed with human nature over the course of these millennia.

Today, we have "prophets and priests" within the Church doing the exact same thing! The human condition is no where near as bad as scripture portrays it, is it? Who is blind since birth? Or deaf since birth? And everyone knows that freedom still abounds with prisoners -- with those enslaved to sin, the flesh, the devil, the world. The bible just uses an exorbitant amount of hyperbole when talking about the human condition, so there's nothing to fret. There's a great deal of spiritual soundness left in the Dead, in spite of what Isaiah said! All the dead have to do is say "freewill, freewill" , when there is no such thing. It's easy peasy to believe and repent! Just make that choice!

Just so you know "free will" is not about choosing the consequences of our actions.

However, it is really neither here nor there, since the Gospel call is to believe.

God predetermined your "natural man" to be that way another stain on the character of god in your system.

And there still is no real connection made by you using scripture, between the state of the "natural man" and the inability to believe the Gospel from birth, as in born that way.

 

[Rufus]

Just so you know "free will" is not about choosing the consequences of our actions.

However, it is really neither here nor there, since the Gospel call is to believe.

God predetermined your "natural man" to be that way another stain on the character of god in your system.

And there still is no real connection made by you using scripture, between the state of the "natural man" and the inability to believe the Gospel from birth, as in born that way.

Please don't keep us in suspense. Share with us your pearls of wisdom by telling us what "freewill" is all about in your world.

And God also predetermined that numerous angels would fall AND that he would provide no salvific remedy for them. Is that also a "stain on the character of God in your [FWT] system"?

And the call of the Law was for all Israel to obey the law perfectly at all times so that they may live. How did that work out for them?

 

[GWH]

What do you mean by "a free gift"? Where does scripture describe grace as a free gift? Is every instance in the Bible of grace/unmerited favour also a free gift ?

If I go to buy a new fridge which costs $1200 retail, and the dealer sees I am finding it hard to part with my cash and offers to sell it to me at the wholesale price, as a favour to me, which part of that deal is unmerited favour ? Which part of the deal is a free gift ?

Does some transaction no longer involve unmerited favour, if both participants are required to contribute something to make the deal happen ?

I'm trying to think of examples in scripture where grace was more like the fridge purchase at an underserved discount, rather than a completely free gift. And other examples where the gift was absolutely free, rather than undeservedly generous. Maybe posters can suggest examples of either.

I would also question whether faith is non-meritorious.

Rom 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Gal 3:6
So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend.

Three times we are told that Abraham's faith was credited/reckoned/elogisthE to Abraham as righteousness. Logizomi is a bookkeeping/ accounting term for putting values in either a debit or credit column. Abraham's faith was put in the righteousness register in the credit column. That sounds meritorious to me.

Because you’re not paying attention to the context in which Paul is contrasting Abraham’s saving faith and works that the Jews failed to realize were no meritorious.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
What do you mean by "a free gift"? Where does scripture describe grace as a free gift? Is every instance in the Bible of grace/unmerited favour also a free gift ?

If I go to buy a new fridge which costs $1200 retail, and the dealer sees I am finding it hard to part with my cash and offers to sell it to me at the wholesale price, as a favour to me, which part of that deal is unmerited favour ? Which part of the deal is a free gift ?

The free delivery part? Or...if you took the fridge with you, the free help you received from store employees loading up your vehicle?

 

[studier]

Lastly, your sloppy exegesis 1Ki 19 doesn't allow you to see that the text says that God RESERVED 7,000 for himself.

First, copying and pasting Scripture isn't exegesis, Rufus. It's no wonder you think you're exegeting; your bar is set so very low.

18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." (1 Ki. 19:18 NKJ)

Here's the copy and paste again - a.k.a. Rufus exegesis - with a little highlight for you of the type of SCRIPTURE that you are obviously blind to:

18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." (1 Ki. 19:18 NKJ)​

​

More active verbs, Rufus, just like men in 2Cor3 who turned to the Lord upon seeing and hearing Him and possibly His works or hearing and learning God's Good News about Him. It's actually fascinating how you are blind to this.

Contrary to your erroneous opinions, some men throughout history, even being sinners, did not ultimately bow the knee to false gods. Again, Faith is recorded in Heb11 back to Abel and onward. It seems clear that you are so deep into your tradition and have put so much of yourself into pushing it, that you've hardened yourself to this track of the story of fallen mankind.