The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
- Thread starter Believer08
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I suspect you didn't know what you were talking about in the first place. Else you would know my post educated your deficiency in understanding both parables .
Jesus,who was the manifestation of God as flesh,told us he will lose no one,not one, whom he leads to understanding and thus eternal salvation. It is irrevocable.
God! Taught that and then died to seal that new covenant,contract,with his divine blood. Then,to fulfill the proof of his eternal life through salvation covenantal teaching,he resurrected after three days and showed himself to his Disciples as returned in glorified flesh,to prove the truth of the words of The Word made flesh.
Numbers have great significance in Hebrew scripture. 3,40. Look them up.
Covenants were sealed in blood for a reason. Look that up as well.
Thank you.
God bless.
Amen.
Jesus,who was the manifestation of God as flesh,told us he will lose no one,not one, whom he leads to understanding and thus eternal salvation. It is irrevocable.
God! Taught that and then died to seal that new covenant,contract,with his divine blood. Then,to fulfill the proof of his eternal life through salvation covenantal teaching,he resurrected after three days and showed himself to his Disciples as returned in glorified flesh,to prove the truth of the words of The Word made flesh.
Numbers have great significance in Hebrew scripture. 3,40. Look them up.
Covenants were sealed in blood for a reason. Look that up as well.
Thank you.
God bless.
Amen.
You have 15 more Scriptures left to deny, but here is a way passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
I mentioned the severity of the way the word translated as "falling away" in Heb6 is used in Scripture. By the way it us used in the OC we can get an idea of how the writer of Hebrews is using it.
We can read all those sections of Ezekial and see how the LXX translators used it to translate Hebrew:
13 "Son of man, when a land sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness, I will stretch out My hand against it; I will cut off its supply of bread, send famine on it, and cut off man and beast from it. 14 "Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness," says the Lord GOD. 15 "If I cause wild beasts to pass through the land, and they empty it, and make it so desolate that no man may pass through because of the beasts, 16 "even though these three men were in it, as I live," says the Lord GOD, "they would deliver neither sons nor daughters; only they would be delivered, and the land would be desolate. (Ezek. 14:13-16 NKJ)
- When the LXX translators read the Hebrew translated here as "persistent unfaithfulness" they used our Heb6 word "falling away" to partially translate it into Greek. So, they seem pretty clearly to be saying "falling away" has to do with persistent unfaithfulness which IMO makes sense in the Heb6 context.
- We can see here how the Lord God treated such persistent unfaithfulness - He basically obliterated it and left only the righteous 3 men who could do absolutely nothing to save those who had fallen away - had been persistently unfaithful.
- Bottom line, falling away has severe consequences in Ezekial and IMO Hebrews, especially with the language re: crucifying Christ again and putting Him to open shame.
-
1
- Show all
Or,you have 15 passages to learn and understand. God is not a man that he should lie.
Why would we,who can and do,presume to insist God's words don't really mean what he said? And then died to reiterate and seal eternally
Believe you can lose all God did for you on the cross.
Please don't try to get me to follow you.
I follow eternal God. And he says you are mistaken.
Why would we,who can and do,presume to insist God's words don't really mean what he said? And then died to reiterate and seal eternally
Believe you can lose all God did for you on the cross.
Please don't try to get me to follow you.
I follow eternal God. And he says you are mistaken.
-
1
- Show all
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
James 1:5
We do not lean on our own understanding. God's truth ,as we are told, is not to be understood by that ego pride driven natural consciousness.
This,as he tells us,is why Jesus taught his ministry of eternal life and salvation using parables.
If all would understand in simple terms,his truth would become the possession of our pride. "We alone know God and you don't!" , type stuff. That's vanity. Which of course is not of God.
So,God talked to us in his way. And in doing so would tell us,when he deems it time,we shall understand. Come to the knowledge of the,his,truth.
Till then we cannot. Many are called. Few are his chosen.
Don't worry. Remember what Jesus said. You may share. However, only the heart called by God asks.
Until then,what we say is received and judged as foolishness.
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."
(hugs you) God bless.
Amen.
James 1:5
We do not lean on our own understanding. God's truth ,as we are told, is not to be understood by that ego pride driven natural consciousness.
This,as he tells us,is why Jesus taught his ministry of eternal life and salvation using parables.
If all would understand in simple terms,his truth would become the possession of our pride. "We alone know God and you don't!" , type stuff. That's vanity. Which of course is not of God.
So,God talked to us in his way. And in doing so would tell us,when he deems it time,we shall understand. Come to the knowledge of the,his,truth.
Till then we cannot. Many are called. Few are his chosen.
Don't worry. Remember what Jesus said. You may share. However, only the heart called by God asks.
Until then,what we say is received and judged as foolishness.
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."
(hugs you) God bless.
Amen.
-
1
- Show all
I don’t see how people understand the beginning of Heb 3 as saying one who is saved can lose their salvation? Help me?
in Heb 1&2 he encouraged them to move forward from the beginning 2 things that would be the foundation of your salvation.
Repentance
Profession of faith
In Heb 3 he gives the ABSOLUTE REASON that you do have your salvation.
Anyone can repent and claim faith, and act like they received the spirit, and act joyous hearing the word of God, but if they are truly not saved (or of God) then the good works and hope will fade, and they will call BS on the gospel and turn from it.
Remember, this is something new and powerful happening because of the outpouring of the spirit. It’s of God. Some would see it and desire to have it just as the rich couple in acts were dead on the spot for trying to buy it. So they ask what do I need to do and the first two things are rpent and profession of faith but if you don’t have the spirit you will fall away with no endurance because god didn’t permit it.
paul clarifies the difference on down a few when he says u expect better things from you thing that ACCOMPANY SALVATION
am u wrong?
Help me jig u am please
in Heb 1&2 he encouraged them to move forward from the beginning 2 things that would be the foundation of your salvation.
Repentance
Profession of faith
In Heb 3 he gives the ABSOLUTE REASON that you do have your salvation.
Anyone can repent and claim faith, and act like they received the spirit, and act joyous hearing the word of God, but if they are truly not saved (or of God) then the good works and hope will fade, and they will call BS on the gospel and turn from it.
Remember, this is something new and powerful happening because of the outpouring of the spirit. It’s of God. Some would see it and desire to have it just as the rich couple in acts were dead on the spot for trying to buy it. So they ask what do I need to do and the first two things are rpent and profession of faith but if you don’t have the spirit you will fall away with no endurance because god didn’t permit it.
paul clarifies the difference on down a few when he says u expect better things from you thing that ACCOMPANY SALVATION
am u wrong?
Help me jig u am please
-
2
- Show all
Apostasy is the blasphemous sin of repudiating one's faith in Jesus and kicking the HS out of one's heart.
It is described in HB 6:4-6 and referred to as the need to persevere in the following Scriptures:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
It is described in HB 6:4-6 and referred to as the need to persevere in the following Scriptures:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
They can say enforce your believe system to agree with the word. Not force the word to fit with your belief system.
There is an easy way to do it. If something contradicts. something is wrong with your belief system. don't fight the contradiction and try to make it go away Like many do on a daily basis
There is an easy way to do it. If something contradicts. something is wrong with your belief system. don't fight the contradiction and try to make it go away Like many do on a daily basis
lol
then prove me wrong.
its that simple.
You can not say
1. We must cooperate with God (works)
2. We must obey Gods commands (works)
3. We must continue in the faith according to our own power, as apposed to be kept in the faith by God and his power (because he never fails us)
4. Etc Etc Etc
or you will lose, or in the end, not be saved because you failed to do these things.
And claim your not trying to merit salvation
then prove me wrong.
its that simple.
You can not say
1. We must cooperate with God (works)
2. We must obey Gods commands (works)
3. We must continue in the faith according to our own power, as apposed to be kept in the faith by God and his power (because he never fails us)
4. Etc Etc Etc
or you will lose, or in the end, not be saved because you failed to do these things.
And claim your not trying to merit salvation
Because if they were truly RESCUED or SAVED (in this case. the one who was dead in trespasses and sins, having been made alive (rescued or saved) in Christ not because they earned it, but because Christ paid the way of salvation
then you could never be made dead again in trespasses and sin. The fact would be if in the end you end up dead (condemned0 you were never saved to begin with.
then you could never be made dead again in trespasses and sin. The fact would be if in the end you end up dead (condemned0 you were never saved to begin with.
again, prove it.
You can not say
1. We must cooperate with God (works)
2. We must obey Gods commands (works)
3. We must continue in the faith according to our own power, as apposed to be kept in the faith by God and his power (because he never fails us)
4. Etc Etc Etc
or you will lose, or in the end, not be saved because you failed to do these things.
And claim your not trying to merit salvation
prove to me you have not claimed these things (at least 2 of the three)
or you prove that my allegations are in truth
You can not say
1. We must cooperate with God (works)
2. We must obey Gods commands (works)
3. We must continue in the faith according to our own power, as apposed to be kept in the faith by God and his power (because he never fails us)
4. Etc Etc Etc
or you will lose, or in the end, not be saved because you failed to do these things.
And claim your not trying to merit salvation
prove to me you have not claimed these things (at least 2 of the three)
or you prove that my allegations are in truth