The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Mem]

It seems that faith is apparent as defining 'coming to,' and I think it was @PaulThomson that previous illustrated an aspect on this observation.
For example, Jesus promises that He will not cast out any that come to Him, and that all that God gives to Him will come to Him. And, hasn't God given Jesus all things? Hasn't God placed everything under Him, until the time comes when Jesus, and after having subjected all things to Himself, will return all things under the Father again. This notion suggests that indeed, Father has given (the fate of) all men under the judgement of Jesus, and I think this what falls under @studier 's Obedient bulletpoint, if "placing" might be considered a work. Placing faith, as abiding, in Jesus, as enduring. I might validly argue that "all men come to Him" but not all men either place their faith on, abide in, or endure with, and that would leave much opportunity to walk, or fall, away, if indeed the 'coming to' is succinctly coming to the intersection in the opportunity to consider of the truth of His Word.

On the Security outline I posted, one of the things I put in it for purpose is God's giving/granting men to Christ. Is He assessing the Faith of the one being granted?

Coming to the juncture of consider the reality of the Gospel, and if one can say, "absolutely, this is quite possible," even if expressed within some sediment of, not doubt so much as a admitted ignorance, might God recognize that as genuine 'faith'? And is it a different judgment if the exact same consideration is accompanied with a slight shadow of doubt? I can't help but associate Amalek and the 'evil eye' of doubt in that case and so conclude that indeed this would render a different judgment. In the former case, I suppose that as soon as 'the closest thing that man can offer as genuine faith' is present, God's reward of the Holy Spirit's Amen is immediate, wherein the latter case Holy Spirit agreement is reserved for a better time.

 

[ATG]

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

As that say, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

This is actually the most troublesome part of using a false fallback position, in order to defend a debatable salvation doctrine.

Since their response must be to condemn the 'former' Christian, as never being a Christian at all, then all their past 'fellowship' in Christ, was just a hoax. How real a brotherhood is that?

2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And what if the accusation and 'disavowment' is based solely upon church membership, rather than fornication, drunkenness, and riotous living? The Catholic church used to kill people for not 'recanting' their departure from their 'Christian unity'.

 

[studier]

Are you proposing a premise (not necessarily your own) that God grants certain men to Christ but not others? If so, which text are you alluding to? I would suggest that all faith is genuine, but some faith is misplaced. And some people misrepresent the degree of their conviction. Even though their conviction per se is genuine, they may exaggerate its strength.

When I was looking at these security issues during the same period when I was studying Faith and Salvation, John6 became a focus for several reasons:

NKJ John6:60-66:

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

• What Jesus has just said includes the eat My flesh and drink My blood speech.
• His many of His disciples found it to be rough/harsh/unpleasant - they say, "who is able to listen to this!?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?

• Jesus asks if this causes them to stumble - does it offend/anger/shock them?
  • He knew it does - IMO He knew it would - He's doing some housecleaning

62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

• IMO - what if you see Me ascend, will you still be offended?
  • IOW, do you know who's speaking to you?

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

• Jesus has been talking to them about giving them Life - He correlates His Words to the Spirit and to Life - this includes essentially everything He's been saying - including what is harsh and offensive to them.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

• Some from you [all] do not believe/are not believing
  • Jesus had known who they were
  • Jesus also knew Judas Iscariot who would hand Him over

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

• Moral of the story; our Father grants men to Jesus
  • If you're not believing - then you haven't been granted (perfect tense) by My Father
    • They never believed in any sense?
      • They were His disciples.
    • They believed but did not abide?
      • NKJ John6:55-56 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
      • Is non-abiding Faith Genuine Faith (see below).
    • They never had Genuine Faith as determined by our Father?

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Re: Genuine Faith:

I'm using the phrase "Genuine Faith" because it's used in Scripture. Based upon these verses I have to question if there is a non-genuine, insincere, pretend faith

NKJ 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith,

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:5 when I call to remembrance the genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

NKJ 1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

• Genuine as a result of a test. Without alloy. A word that is used in the assaying of metals for purity and thus value.

I hesitate to make this more complex, but here goes... What is this? It's certainly not abiding belief and if it's not abiding belief, is it Genuine Faith? Have such men been granted to Jesus by God?

NKJ Luke8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. (revolt, withdraw, go away).

@mailmandan speaks of "nominal (in name only) believers." I'm not opposed to the concept. And I'm not opposed to considering the concept in Jesus' non-abiding disciples who He essential outed and drove away. When it comes to such, the Never Saved category I bulleted as a typical discussion point re: Security it seems to me is a real category, but I threw in a concept re: God's granting that I think is questionable. @Genez may have picked this up or his post was just coincidental.

I also have some thoughts about God granting and temporal concepts of election.

cc: @Mem @GWH @mailmandan @Genez

 

[GWH]

I keep wondering where scripture puts "genuine" in front of faith?

It is not how "genuine" it is, but if it is placed correctly.

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter reuired genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

 

[Inquisitor]

Actually eternal security is true because of Love, that Love of God who promises to keep those who are His.

What you said matches the traditional view point.

You have ignored the Lord's commandment to love others.

You also ignored the entire Old testament as well.

2 Peter 2:6
And if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,
having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter.

So holiness and love for others on your part is absent.

Well done, it's not easy to apply an interpretation to the scripture and exclude any personal responsibility.
On your part to follow Jesus step by step.

 

[Smoke]

OK sure i'll be like you. that's what you want.

comfortless, without any assurance at all, hopeless, faithless, fearing every moment God is incapable and my works have some unseen error in them. unbelieving, on the precipice of damnation every second, trying spastically to earn my way into heaven by faking righteous behavior. praying no one notices all my naked failure.

smh

is the gospel really so hard to comprehend?
((OK reads on...))

You literally posted my internal dialogue from my childhood... Thank God I learned what the atonement of Jesus Christ really is.

I remember I would pray and ask God to help me remember all the sins I committed so that I could confess them to the bishop of the church (as I believed that was the only way to truly be forgiven). It saddens me to know people can't fully find peace and comfort that they are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. We get to spend eternity with Him! We can't and don't save ourselves. That was the entire point of why God sent His only begotten Son to the world and all glory is His, not ours (or our works).