Yes, there is Scripture supporting the view that angels are real, but the hypothesis of this thread is that it opens up a can of worms about which GW is very vague. Do angels have MFW and thus need God's POS, or are they robotic and thus viewable as mere extensions of God's HS, so we should only glorify them as such?
How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?
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I appreciate getting an opinion of an ex-RC. Yes, in the thread about KISSing the HOB we saw how RC left/renounced GW/the NT and became corrupted by papalism and perversions of the Gospel.
I cited the book because there may be folks on CC who are more confused about angelology than I am, so we are trying to agree on what Scripture teaches with respect to their role and personality compared with the HS.
I perceive that the hypothesis "angels should grow less as the HS is glorified in the church era" (between Acts and REV) is affirmed by a few so far, and there are a couple of folks willing to consider whether the OT angels were actually manifestations of the HS described by souls before revelation per the NT that God is Triune.
I cited the book because there may be folks on CC who are more confused about angelology than I am, so we are trying to agree on what Scripture teaches with respect to their role and personality compared with the HS.
I perceive that the hypothesis "angels should grow less as the HS is glorified in the church era" (between Acts and REV) is affirmed by a few so far, and there are a couple of folks willing to consider whether the OT angels were actually manifestations of the HS described by souls before revelation per the NT that God is Triune.
Thanks CS1. When the Lord himself descends from heaven in 1 Thes he has the voice of the archangel. That is his voice: We read, "
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
"
When Michael defeats Satan in Revelation it is with his blood: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," which continues a few verses further... "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. "
When Daniel inquires from God, we read, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. " Jesus is the prince of peace in the Bible and he is Daniel's prince.
The term archangel simply means 'chief messenger' which Jesus is.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
"
When Michael defeats Satan in Revelation it is with his blood: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," which continues a few verses further... "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. "
When Daniel inquires from God, we read, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. " Jesus is the prince of peace in the Bible and he is Daniel's prince.
The term archangel simply means 'chief messenger' which Jesus is.
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1thess chapter four says 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
it doesn't say with a voice as the archangel like the trump of God.
I state WITH the voice of the Archangel and WITH the Trump of GOD.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
it doesn't say with a voice as the archangel like the trump of God.
I state WITH the voice of the Archangel and WITH the Trump of GOD.
The holy spirit is an angel. That's why they are ministering spirits. Minister means servants. Why you think the Devil rebelled Because he does not want to minister to those who will heir. Get you some knowledge because you don' know nothing. God made the bees and the bees made honey so who made honey? GOD.
GOD gets all the glory. Never forget that. If the angel kills someone then GOD did it plain and simple.
Exodus 23: 20
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Isaiah 6: 7 - 10
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them
GOD gets all the glory. Never forget that. If the angel kills someone then GOD did it plain and simple.
Exodus 23: 20
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Isaiah 6: 7 - 10
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them
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Honestly if it ain't in the bible I don't deal with it. I read a couple of history books for studying purposes as the bible is also a history book but when dealing with spiritual things, stick to the bible. You will get lost if go outside of the bible.
Yea the bible doesn't support the trinity. People read one scripture and run with it and ignore every other scripture that indicates there are only 2 in the GODHEAD. Holy spirit is not GOD and does not want to be worshipped.
Revelation 22: 8 - 9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Yea the bible doesn't support the trinity. People read one scripture and run with it and ignore every other scripture that indicates there are only 2 in the GODHEAD. Holy spirit is not GOD and does not want to be worshipped.
Revelation 22: 8 - 9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
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Certainly the Bible should be used as the plumb line to determine whether extra-biblical insights are true. History, math, science and other books may contain truth, although they are not about ultimate Truth regarding how to qualify for heaven, which is the focus of Scripture.
Regarding the Triune God:
The OT Shema (DT 6:4) teaches that God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (EPH 4:6, 1TM 2:5). However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways simultaneously: as the Father, as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).
The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (MT 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (RM 4:11, 8:15, PHP 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (JN 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (RM 1:4, GL 2:20, 1THS 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (JN 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (ACTS 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (RM 8:4-26, 1CR 6:19, EPH 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2PT 1:21, JUDE 20).
It might be helpful for those who stumble over this NT doctrine to discern which aspect of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. These divine aspects or “persons” may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (GN 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1TM 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (RM 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (RM 5:8, EPH 2:18).
We can denote these distinctions by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (EPH 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (MT 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (EPH 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Ephesians 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1CR 8:6).
Actually, since the creation also manifests God (RM 1:20, cf. JN 1:1-3 & PS 33:6), in a sense God may be viewed as a “Quadity”. As Paul told the Athenians (ACTS 17:28), “In Him we live and move and have our being.” God as Creation is throughout physical reality (called “panentheism”). However, since this mode of revelation is impersonal, it has rightly been de-emphasized by most Christian denominations.
Regarding the Triune God:
The OT Shema (DT 6:4) teaches that God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (EPH 4:6, 1TM 2:5). However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways simultaneously: as the Father, as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).
The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (MT 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (RM 4:11, 8:15, PHP 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (JN 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (RM 1:4, GL 2:20, 1THS 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (JN 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (ACTS 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (RM 8:4-26, 1CR 6:19, EPH 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2PT 1:21, JUDE 20).
It might be helpful for those who stumble over this NT doctrine to discern which aspect of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. These divine aspects or “persons” may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (GN 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1TM 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (RM 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (RM 5:8, EPH 2:18).
We can denote these distinctions by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (EPH 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (MT 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (EPH 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Ephesians 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1CR 8:6).
Actually, since the creation also manifests God (RM 1:20, cf. JN 1:1-3 & PS 33:6), in a sense God may be viewed as a “Quadity”. As Paul told the Athenians (ACTS 17:28), “In Him we live and move and have our being.” God as Creation is throughout physical reality (called “panentheism”). However, since this mode of revelation is impersonal, it has rightly been de-emphasized by most Christian denominations.
Why kind of math is that? (3 x 1) = 1
GOD is not one person. GOD is a Uniplural word same as man. Whenever GOD refers to man he is talking about mankind. The Godhead contains two separate individuals.
Revelation 10: 1 - 7
5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
You trying to tell me that GOD took the book from himself? At some point we need to believe what we read and not what pastor so and so said.
John 10: 30
30 I and my Father are one.
Notice, he did not say I, the father and the holy ghost. Just him and the father are GOD. The holy ghost simple bears the record indicated in 1 John 5: 7. This is why we need to precept everything out because why Jesus make the above statement and not say the holy ghost?
Genesis 11: 1 - 3
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Do you know what the LORD meant when he said the people is one? It means they are on same page they are obviously different individuals who has the same purpose. Once you understand this you will realize the holy ghost is just a ministering spirit. That's all.
GOD is not one person. GOD is a Uniplural word same as man. Whenever GOD refers to man he is talking about mankind. The Godhead contains two separate individuals.
Revelation 10: 1 - 7
5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
You trying to tell me that GOD took the book from himself? At some point we need to believe what we read and not what pastor so and so said.
John 10: 30
30 I and my Father are one.
Notice, he did not say I, the father and the holy ghost. Just him and the father are GOD. The holy ghost simple bears the record indicated in 1 John 5: 7. This is why we need to precept everything out because why Jesus make the above statement and not say the holy ghost?
Genesis 11: 1 - 3
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Do you know what the LORD meant when he said the people is one? It means they are on same page they are obviously different individuals who has the same purpose. Once you understand this you will realize the holy ghost is just a ministering spirit. That's all.
You can't use Paul's writing to teach the holy ghost is GOD. Every time he writes, he starts a certain way, let me show you.
Romans 1: 1, 7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In ALL of Paul's letters he always greets from GOD the Father and Jesus our LORD.I never seen him mention the holy ghost. NOT one single time you will never find it. I am not afraid to say it and I don't care who don't believe what is written and who calls me a heretick. They called Jesus a devil so nothing man do surprise me. Only the Father and Jesus is GOD. No such thing as GOD the holy ghost, that's ministers deceiving you to worship angels. Rome literally voted on the triune doctrine.
Colossians 2: 16
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Somehow, we have been deceived into worshipping angels and Paul literally is warning us not to do this.
Romans 1: 1, 7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In ALL of Paul's letters he always greets from GOD the Father and Jesus our LORD.I never seen him mention the holy ghost. NOT one single time you will never find it. I am not afraid to say it and I don't care who don't believe what is written and who calls me a heretick. They called Jesus a devil so nothing man do surprise me. Only the Father and Jesus is GOD. No such thing as GOD the holy ghost, that's ministers deceiving you to worship angels. Rome literally voted on the triune doctrine.
Colossians 2: 16
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Somehow, we have been deceived into worshipping angels and Paul literally is warning us not to do this.
You serious right now? I showed you the full script.
Also, I don't do interpretation, the bible interprets itself.
That SPIRIT that is in romans 8 is simple THE WORD OF GOD.
John 6: 63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So if you have GOD words in you then the holy spirit is in you. You need to understand that the spirit comes in many forms and use it in its appropriate context.
Job 33: 3 - 4
3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Let the bible interpret itself that's why GOD said lean not on your own understanding. The spirit Job refer to is the breath of life.
Also, I don't do interpretation, the bible interprets itself.
That SPIRIT that is in romans 8 is simple THE WORD OF GOD.
John 6: 63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So if you have GOD words in you then the holy spirit is in you. You need to understand that the spirit comes in many forms and use it in its appropriate context.
Job 33: 3 - 4
3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Let the bible interpret itself that's why GOD said lean not on your own understanding. The spirit Job refer to is the breath of life.
Ephesians 4: 30 is indeed talking about the angel, thats why Paul said not to grieve him because we literally saw what happened to people that grieved the angel that stands in GOD's presence.
Ecclesiastes 5: 2, 5 - 6
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
Exodus 23: 20 - 22
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Isaiah 63: 10
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Since Israel don't listen GOD remove them out of Jerusalem. This is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 4. Want another example?
Ecclesiastes 5: 2, 5 - 6
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
Exodus 23: 20 - 22
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Isaiah 63: 10
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Since Israel don't listen GOD remove them out of Jerusalem. This is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 4. Want another example?
11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.