Understanding God’s election
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I would challenge you to read both Deuteronomy and Revelation. They have the exact same outline. They both begin with a preamble, followed by a historical prologue. Then both deal with the terms of a covenant. The first then goes on to iterate the repercussions for not keeping the terms of the covenant, and the second tells of the impending judgment for not keeping the stipulations of that same covenant. They both conclude with an means of continuation of God's plan...a way forward, if you will.
You just contradicted yourself. There is "only one kind of faith" -- that faith that truly has Christ and him alone as its object; but you also admitted that faith can have wrong objects, ergo such faith is spurious. The false disciples who chased after Jesus in John 6 had this latter kind of faith; for the real object of their faith were the benefits that Jesus could offer them, such as keeping their bellies full.
It is very tiresome trying to engage in discussion with people who lack any understanding of logic... but I am a fairly patient man, so I keep trying. And I also realise that although the posters I may be discussing with have no logic compass and are drifting rudderless, other readers of our posts will understand and benefit from what I am actually saying.
I did not contradict myself. Faith directed toward different objects does not make the faith different. A telescope aimed at different celestial bodies does not become a different telescope every time it changes the object it is focused upon.
I did not contradict myself. Faith directed toward different objects does not make the faith different. A telescope aimed at different celestial bodies does not become a different telescope every time it changes the object it is focused upon.
So then being in Christ is what sinners do for themselves when they repent and believe the gospel? Why am I not surprised that you boast in the might and power and wisdom and smarts of sinners? Yet, it is written:
1 Cor 1:26-31
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things — and the things that are not — to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God — that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
NIV
Just goes to show how far off the mark of the true gospel you FWs are! Even Studier believes that those who freely choose to repent and believe the gospel are inherently smarter than their hell-bound counterparts who consider the Cross of Christ to be foolishness. Typical worldly, fleshly thinking. BUT...God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise (the folks who fancy themselves as being smart).
Smooth move, Mr. PT: You just contradicted scripture.
1 Cor 1:26-31
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things — and the things that are not — to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God — that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
NIV
Just goes to show how far off the mark of the true gospel you FWs are! Even Studier believes that those who freely choose to repent and believe the gospel are inherently smarter than their hell-bound counterparts who consider the Cross of Christ to be foolishness. Typical worldly, fleshly thinking. BUT...God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise (the folks who fancy themselves as being smart).
Smooth move, Mr. PT: You just contradicted scripture.
But it isn't faith alone that saves: It's the OBJECT of that Faith that saves! Faith is not an end but rather a means to the End. Therefore, what defines anyone's faith is the object of it! The world is filled with "believers" in something or another! Faith did not hang on a cross and atone for anyone's sins; rather Jesus did!
The "Judaism" that is being practiced today is not sanctioned in scripture, for it is a man-made version of biblical Judaism. Without the temple, the priesthood and sacrifices, there is NO BIBLICAL JUDAISM! Biblical Judaism died an ignoble death in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the temple.
And Cam is correct! Satan has NO power over Jesus' true disciples. Satan cannot control God's seed, only his own offspring!
1 John 3:7-10
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
NIV
It is the ungodly world that is under the devil's power -- those who live under the control of the flesh, the world and their evil father; not Christ's Church! How long have you been an admirer of the devil? And notice that v. 8b is not in the future tense, as you claim by your earthly millennial kingdom nonsense. John did not teach that Christ will appear to destroy the devils' work -- but rather that He HAS APPEARED, i.e. his first advent!
And Cam is correct! Satan has NO power over Jesus' true disciples. Satan cannot control God's seed, only his own offspring!
1 John 3:7-10
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
NIV
It is the ungodly world that is under the devil's power -- those who live under the control of the flesh, the world and their evil father; not Christ's Church! How long have you been an admirer of the devil? And notice that v. 8b is not in the future tense, as you claim by your earthly millennial kingdom nonsense. John did not teach that Christ will appear to destroy the devils' work -- but rather that He HAS APPEARED, i.e. his first advent!
Why can't you see that Biblical Judaism DIED in 70 A.D.? In fact, just as important, if not more so, than temple worship that involved blood sacrifices, the priesthood, etc. is that the temple housed the very PRESENCE of God in Israel. Just like the body is dead when the soul separates from it, or when a soul is dead because it is separated from the life of God, so too Judaism died when God separated himself from Israel's earthly temple, which actually was initiated at the Cross. God no longer dwells with the nation of Israel! Therefore, Israel's post-70 A.D. Judaism is as dead as national Israel herself is dead to God!
Christians are comprised of two men: the old man driven by the flesh and manipulable by the devil, and the new man empowered by the Holy Spirit. Christians can allow the old man to live, or crucify the old man by yielding to the Holy Spirit. Your assertion that Satan cannot take control of Christians is just not tenable when we listen to the complete body of New Testament teaching.
You are correct, so far. It is the object of faith that saves, when one puts ones faith in that object, if the object is truly capable of saving. A man dying of thirst in the desert can see an oasis. If he believes there is water there and walks toward it, the water can save him. If it is a mirage, it won't save him.
Now you have left reality. What does "what defines anyone's faith is the object of it" mean? You can buy a generic tap/faucet from a hardware shop and use it on a drum to dispense oil, or petrol or water or milk. What a tap is dispensing does not "define" the tap. It's the a tap, according to a dictionary definition, in all cases. Why are you twisting language like this, just to shore up a theological position you do not even need to embrace to be saved? Why is winning an argument more important to you that getting to truth?
Now you have left reality. What does "what defines anyone's faith is the object of it" mean? You can buy a generic tap/faucet from a hardware shop and use it on a drum to dispense oil, or petrol or water or milk. What a tap is dispensing does not "define" the tap. It's the a tap, according to a dictionary definition, in all cases. Why are you twisting language like this, just to shore up a theological position you do not even need to embrace to be saved? Why is winning an argument more important to you that getting to truth?
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Rufus said: What puts a person into Christ?
PaulThomson said:
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ.
One cannot believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess He is Lord without believing God did some stuff that I did not do to make those two things true. My answer does not in any way deny that we are saved because of God.
I could have given one of the less shorthand answers that I have already given many times: God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and, to confirm Jesus' appointment by God as mankind's "Lord and Christ", God raised Him from the dead, and by believing these things and trusting Christ as Lord and saviour God puts us into Christ.
SunergeO, not monergeO
PaulThomson said:
Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as Lord puts a person into Christ.
One cannot believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess He is Lord without believing God did some stuff that I did not do to make those two things true. My answer does not in any way deny that we are saved because of God.
I could have given one of the less shorthand answers that I have already given many times: God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and, to confirm Jesus' appointment by God as mankind's "Lord and Christ", God raised Him from the dead, and by believing these things and trusting Christ as Lord and saviour God puts us into Christ.
SunergeO, not monergeO
If Biblical Judaism dies when the presence of God leaves the temple, why did Judaism not de when God abandoned the temple in Eli's day when Eli pronounced "Ichabod" (the glory has departed). Or when the veil was rent in two at Jesus' death and God's glory left the temple. Why are you selecting the 70 AD destruction of the temple as the end of Judaism?
It has been posited, in so many words that aren't exact to those I'm using, that there is a differing measures of God's grace. It seems some are given a steak dinner while others only get peanut butter sandwiches. Or everybody gets peanut butter sandwiches, but only some are offered the steak dinner. It is my view that the steak dinner is offered to everyone but some stop short of submitting to the dress code and settle for peanut butter sandwiches.
It is also my view that the natural man is as dead as the spirit man, and vise versa, as that is the sure prognosis. The man, as a whole, is deathly sick and in dire deed of a physician. He can do nothing to either heal nor help deliver himself from that certain end. But, there IS help for him, the Great Physician that is so equipped that He is able to raise anyone from death, as He has proved naturally so that all could see and just as skilled at raising the spiritually dead, and coming to Him is indeed effectually confessing our sickness unto death. My view is not that far of a throw from your view, short of the 100 percent anything. I mean, 1 percent alive is quite really dead, physically, so I can't rule out that spiritual death doesn't operate in a similar manner. So, I can go so far as accepting that a man can be born .01 percent spiritually alive and in grave danger of complete death even if his body is 99.99 percent alive, but I can't rule out that that .01 percent of him (the only part that can hear the Spirit) cannot, somehow, with the help of the Word of God, eventually overpower his nature to live as a complete animal.
It is of my opinion that is never too late until one is completely dead dead dead.
It is also my view that the natural man is as dead as the spirit man, and vise versa, as that is the sure prognosis. The man, as a whole, is deathly sick and in dire deed of a physician. He can do nothing to either heal nor help deliver himself from that certain end. But, there IS help for him, the Great Physician that is so equipped that He is able to raise anyone from death, as He has proved naturally so that all could see and just as skilled at raising the spiritually dead, and coming to Him is indeed effectually confessing our sickness unto death. My view is not that far of a throw from your view, short of the 100 percent anything. I mean, 1 percent alive is quite really dead, physically, so I can't rule out that spiritual death doesn't operate in a similar manner. So, I can go so far as accepting that a man can be born .01 percent spiritually alive and in grave danger of complete death even if his body is 99.99 percent alive, but I can't rule out that that .01 percent of him (the only part that can hear the Spirit) cannot, somehow, with the help of the Word of God, eventually overpower his nature to live as a complete animal.
It is of my opinion that is never too late until one is completely dead dead dead.
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Ah. It just seems odd to say that the man NOT made alive in Christ and with heart uncircumcised is not 100%
a natural man. That is the distinction made between the two in Scripture. And it is what I rattle on about.
I don't ascribe any percentage of spiritual life to a man yet in need of being raised to life in Christ.
He is called dead in his trespasses and sins and so that is what I consider him. That is the natural man.
And he is very much contrasted against the spiritual man. One attains to life ever after. The other does not.
Quite the distinction.
John 3:6, Romans 8:7, Galatians 5:17, 2 Timothy 3:13, Romans 3:18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
a natural man. That is the distinction made between the two in Scripture. And it is what I rattle on about.
I don't ascribe any percentage of spiritual life to a man yet in need of being raised to life in Christ.
He is called dead in his trespasses and sins and so that is what I consider him. That is the natural man.
And he is very much contrasted against the spiritual man. One attains to life ever after. The other does not.
Quite the distinction.
John 3:6, Romans 8:7, Galatians 5:17, 2 Timothy 3:13, Romans 3:18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
I see the definition of "attains" as given per Oxford languages:
succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for).
"clarify your objectives and ways of attaining them"
how do the completely dead even hope to attain anything? And I am not implying that the source of his hope is not from outside of him, but that hope no less does come from within him.
succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for).
"clarify your objectives and ways of attaining them"
how do the completely dead even hope to attain anything? And I am not implying that the source of his hope is not from outside of him, but that hope no less does come from within him.
Attains is the word I thought Scripture uses, but I could be wrong, though we can know we are saved, or have eternal life, so there is that... and of course that is in knowing Jesus Christ. Jesus raises us to new life, while we are dead in our trespasses and sins, which is not the way the free willer thinks of it, since they believe their faith comes first, and then they are raised to new life. So they have put the cart before the horse. They have the corrupt heart of the natural man growing a good fruit which is not possible. The stony ground cannot grow anything lasting.