Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

[Scotth1960]

It's the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, The God-Bearer, The Virgin Mary, etc.

Dear SantoSubito, More truth from the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible):
"Exodus 23:20: "Behold, I send My Angel before your face, to keep you in the way and to bring you into the land I prepared for you." (page 95).
"23:20 "This is the Angel who said to Moses, "I AM the Existing One" (3:14). He is the Only-begotten God, because He is begotten from the Unbegotten Father before all time and ages. He is called Angel to distinguish Him from the Father. The word angel means messenger, and thus Angel reveals the will of the Father to man. Moses believed in the Holy Trinity (Gregory of Nyssa). Thus "My" refers to the Father, and "Angel" refers to the Son."
In Erie PA September 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

[SantoSubito]

I think it has to do with how you define worship. You take worship to mean that the icons used are worshipped in place of God, where I think the Orthodox church takes worshipping icons to mean an act of veneration, at least that's what I get from Scott and others.


And I think about the praying to saints is him petitioning them to pray with him on his behalf, so he has some other voices working for him, not that he's praying to them in place of God. So not actually talking to them, but calling upon them.

I see a difference there anyway.

Thank you, there is a difference. Some Protestants through ignorance or denial, refuse to recognize the distinction.

 

[Strangelove]

I think it has to do with how you define worship. You take worship to mean that the icons used are worshipped in place of God, where I think the Orthodox church takes worshipping icons to mean an act of veneration, at least that's what I get from Scott and others.


And I think about the praying to saints is him petitioning them to pray with him on his behalf, so he has some other voices working for him, not that he's praying to them in place of God. So not actually talking to them, but calling upon them.

I see a difference there anyway.

Even communicationg with them is an ABOMINATION.

They could be DEAD!

No object is Holy. No object deserves veneration. It's idolatry.

 

[Strangelove]

Friend:
Yes. It is not worship.
Consider how the word worship can be used.
It doesn't always mean revere as God.
The Anglican (Protestant) marriage ceremony:
"With my body I thee worship, and to thee all my worldly gifts endow."
Scott Harrington Erie PA

Dear friend:
Exodus 25:9 SAAS OSB page 97: "According to all I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the patters of all its furnishings, so you shall make it." 25:9 The use of icons in the Church is not idol worship, for God commanded the use of icons in their worship. These icons were "the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings." The honor given the icons in the Church passes over to the prototype (John of Damascus; Basil the Great)."
Read these chapters in Exodus and see how God commanded icons (images) of cherubim, etc. to be made in the ark of the covenant and the furnishings of the OT tabernacle. If there are furnishings in the OT, there are furnishings in the NT, because God's law does not change, unless God makes a change, as He did through Christ in the dietary regulations and the cessation of animal sacrifices due to the coming of the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and His shed blood as the atonement (forgiveness) of sins.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

God never commanded anyone to WORSHIP or venerate and cherubim or any other statues or objects.

The argument is.....lame.

 

[Strangelove]

Thank you, there is a difference. Some Protestants through ignorance or denial, refuse to recognize the distinction.

Because there is none.

 

[NitzWalsh]

Even communicationg with them is an ABOMINATION.

They could be DEAD!

No object is Holy. No object deserves veneration. It's idolatry.

I'm not saying I agree with them, just saying I see the difference.

 

[Scotth1960]

Even communicationg with them is an ABOMINATION.

They could be DEAD!

No object is Holy. No object deserves veneration. It's idolatry.

Peter Sellers doesn't deserve to be your pseudonym. He could sue you for copyright infringement! I am just kidding!

 

[SantoSubito]

Even communicationg with them is an ABOMINATION.

They could be DEAD!

No object is Holy. No object deserves veneration. It's idolatry.

Dead in body, but alive in Christ. Though they have died they are still part of the Church, for the Church is composed of both the living on Earth and the souls in Heaven.

 

[Scotth1960]

Because there is none.

And so then, there is no difference between you and Peter Sellers, or between you, Peter Sellers, and "Doctor Strangelove"! (?) Strange indeed!

 

[Strangelove]

Dead in body, but alive in Christ. Though they have died they are still part of the Church, for the Church is composed of both the living on Earth and the souls in Heaven.

How do you know?

Half the people you ask for prayers might have been Mat 7:23 ones?

 

[Strangelove]

And so then, there is no difference between you and Peter Sellers, or between you, Peter Sellers, and "Doctor Strangelove"! (?) Strange indeed!

Scott.....answer this post and stop being silly.

I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove

This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Then you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty

Dear strangelove.
You are falsely accusing me of lying. It is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor. I ask the saints to pray for me.

What is the false witness?

You have made a very serious accusation on this point and we need you to clarify otherwise YOU are bearing false witness.

I said you ask basil for his prayers AND YOU ADMIT YOU DO!

So what gives Scotty?

 

[Scotth1960]

Even communicationg with them is an ABOMINATION.

They could be DEAD!

No object is Holy. No object deserves veneration. It's idolatry.

No object is Holy. Then why did you use an object to represent yourself as Peter Sellers?
Aren't you risking being thought of as a comedian?

 

[Strangelove]

No object is Holy. Then why did you use an object to represent yourself as Peter Sellers?
Aren't you risking being thought of as a comedian?

Pathetic Scotty.

 

[Scotth1960]

God never commanded anyone to WORSHIP or venerate and cherubim or any other statues or objects.

The argument is.....lame.

God never commanded anyone to pretend to be Peter Sellers.
The Orthodox Church does not worship icons. Only God is worshipped in the EOC.

 

[Strangelove]

The Orthodox Church does not worship icons. Only God is worshipped in the EOC.

From the EOC liturgy:

Open unto us the door of thy tender heartedness, O Blessed Theotokos; in
that we have hoped in thee,may we not perish, butthrough thee be
delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the generation
of Christians.
Then they approach the iconof Christ and kiss it, saying:
Thine immaculate icon do we worship, O Good One,asking pardon of our
offenses, O Christ God; thou wast pleased of thy goodwill to ascend the
Cross in the flesh, to deliver those whom thou hadst fashioned from
bondage to the enemy. Wherefore, in thanksgiving, we cryout to thee,
with joy hast thou filled all things, O our Savior, havingcome to save
the world.

 

[Scotth1960]

How do you know?

Half the people you ask for prayers might have been Mat 7:23 ones?

Does Peter Sellers have any "important threads" that we should see?
Chapter and verse in the Bible, please!

 

[NiceneChristian]

From the EOC liturgy:

Open unto us the door of thy tender heartedness, O Blessed Theotokos; in
that we have hoped in thee,may we not perish, butthrough thee be
delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the generation
of Christians.
Then they approach the iconof Christ and kiss it, saying:
Thine immaculate icon do we worship, O Good One,asking pardon of our
offenses, O Christ God; thou wast pleased of thy goodwill to ascend the
Cross in the flesh, to deliver those whom thou hadst fashioned from
bondage to the enemy. Wherefore, in thanksgiving, we cryout to thee,
with joy hast thou filled all things, O our Savior, havingcome to save
the world.

Jesus Christ IS THE ICON OF THE FATHER, that prayer was talking about worshiping Christ, the Image (icon) of God.:

15 He is the image (icon) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(Collosians*1:15*NKJ)



You can't seriously think that we worship the wood and paint can you? We worship Christ the Image of God, represented by the paint placed on the wood.

 

[Scotth1960]

From the EOC liturgy:

Open unto us the door of thy tender heartedness, O Blessed Theotokos; in
that we have hoped in thee,may we not perish, butthrough thee be
delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the generation
of Christians.
Then they approach the iconof Christ and kiss it, saying:
Thine immaculate icon do we worship, O Good One,asking pardon of our
offenses, O Christ God; thou wast pleased of thy goodwill to ascend the
Cross in the flesh, to deliver those whom thou hadst fashioned from
bondage to the enemy. Wherefore, in thanksgiving, we cryout to thee,
with joy hast thou filled all things, O our Savior, havingcome to save
the world.

Dear Peter Sellers,
If Protestant apologists make a distinction that they venerate the Bible, but do not worship it, then Eastern Orthodox apologists can validly also say that they venerate icons, but do not worship them. Veneration, however can mean worship.
Worship means 2 distinct, different things
1. worship to adore as God adoration
2. worship to venerate as a saint veneration
"Worship "Adoration versus veneration
"Catholicism, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin, adoratio, Greek, latreia), which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin, veneration, Greek, duleia), which may be lawfully offereed to the saints."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship

If you accept, as a Protestants, Anglicans as Christians, because they the most important doctrine of your Protestant faith, justification by faith alone, or, what may arguably be your more believed in Protestant faith doctrine, authority by scripture alone, then you must admit that you accept as a Christian a person who holds to this distinction between adoration and veneration. If you as a Protestant venerate the Bible, but do not say it is God or adore it, then you cannot logically reject as un-Christians those who say they venerate icons, but do not worship them as God. And the word venerate can translate as worship, not in the same sense of worship as "adore as God." Sometimes words have two or more different meanings!
Mature thinkers know that words have differing meanings and it all depends on what context a word is used.
Some Protestants could virtually seem to be wandering into "Bible worship", so it is wrong to decry the worship (veneration) of icons, while you, as Protestants, venture into a kind of idolatry about the Bible itself, even to the point, in many of your Protestant confessions of faith, you put the doctrine of the Bible first in your list of Christian articles of faith, even before the doctrine of God Himself. The Bible is not more important than God itself, nor can it be rightly understood without the Holy Spirit (John 16:13) in the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15).
God bless you, whatever your real name or nationality is.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus Christ IS THE ICON OF THE FATHER, that prayer was talking about worshiping Christ, the Image (icon) of God.:

15 He is the image (icon) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(Collosians*1:15*NKJ)



You can't seriously think that we worship the wood and paint can you? We worship Christ the Image of God, represented by the paint placed on the wood.

Nice try but it says:

then they approach the icon of Christ and kiss it, saying:
Thine immaculate icon do we worship

So its talking about the actual object.

You call the object HOLY.

Yes you worship the object. It's idolatry.

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Peter Sellers,
If Protestant apologists make a distinction that they venerate the Bible, but do not worship it, then Eastern Orthodox apologists can validly also say that they venerate icons, but do not worship them. Veneration, however can mean worship.
Worship means 2 distinct, different things
1. worship to adore as God adoration
2. worship to venerate as a saint veneration
"Worship "Adoration versus veneration
"Catholicism, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin, adoratio, Greek, latreia), which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin, veneration, Greek, duleia), which may be lawfully offereed to the saints."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship

If you accept, as a Protestants, Anglicans as Christians, because they the most important doctrine of your Protestant faith, justification by faith alone, or, what may arguably be your more believed in Protestant faith doctrine, authority by scripture alone, then you must admit that you accept as a Christian a person who holds to this distinction between adoration and veneration. If you as a Protestant venerate the Bible, but do not say it is God or adore it, then you cannot logically reject as un-Christians those who say they venerate icons, but do not worship them as God. And the word venerate can translate as worship, not in the same sense of worship as "adore as God." Sometimes words have two or more different meanings!
Mature thinkers know that words have differing meanings and it all depends on what context a word is used.
Some Protestants could virtually seem to be wandering into "Bible worship", so it is wrong to decry the worship (veneration) of icons, while you, as Protestants, venture into a kind of idolatry about the Bible itself, even to the point, in many of your Protestant confessions of faith, you put the doctrine of the Bible first in your list of Christian articles of faith, even before the doctrine of God Himself. The Bible is not more important than God itself, nor can it be rightly understood without the Holy Spirit (John 16:13) in the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15).
God bless you, whatever your real name or nationality is.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I don't venerate or worship (same thing) any bible.

Gods Word is Holy. Not the paper and leather bind.