Imputed Righteousness???

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GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Paul tells us in our natural sin state we cannot understand the things of God because those are only understood through the leading of God's spirit.

Jesus told his disciples he taught them in parables so that not all hearing him speak would understand what he's teaching. Again,because his teachings are spiritually discerned.
Well, I believe God is not tricky, and the main thing to discern is this:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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Well, I believe God is not tricky, and the main thing to discern is this:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
I'm familiar with that information. You copied it from Truth Seekers website and without giving them credit.

https://truthseekersfellowship.com/gods-requirements/

No,God is not tricky. He also means what he says.
While mere mortals often enough will try to reword what he tells us.

No one comes to Jesus unless God calls them by entering into them and overcoming the sin condition of the natural man and leading them to understand his message. Because God gives those he elects to Jesus. And of those who the father gives to his salvation,being Jesus was God in flesh,he shall lose none.

Yes,I recall you have an issue with the word lose. However,Jesus didn't. And that's what is important here.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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I'm familiar with that information. You copied it from Truth Seekers website and without giving them credit.

https://truthseekersfellowship.com/gods-requirements/

No,God is not tricky. He also means what he says.
While mere mortals often enough will try to reword what he tells us.

No one comes to Jesus unless God calls them by entering into them and overcoming the sin condition of the natural man and leading them to understand his message. Because God gives those he elects to Jesus. And of those who the father gives to his salvation,being Jesus was God in flesh,he shall lose none.

Yes,I recall you have an issue with the word lose. However,Jesus didn't. And that's what is important here.
Well, I used to refer to it as my website, but I now call it OUR website,
because I want everyone who finds it helpful to feel free to use it as a resource,
so copy from it as much as you want without giving me credit.
(I realize folks will disagree with part, and I continue to amend it with good points.)
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
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Well, I used to refer to it as my website, but I now call it OUR website,
because I want everyone who finds it helpful to feel free to use it as a resource,
so copy from it as much as you want without giving me credit.
(I realize folks will disagree with part, and I continue to amend it with good points.)
Except you don't link "your" website to your profile.
Nor do you credit what you copy and paste from that source. Which is something the owner of the site would do to be in alignment with the rule regarding posting articles from a third party source.

And,in doing this the owner of a site would also be promoting their own website.

You however do none of those things. Instead you post as if the text you share is your original thought.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Yes, you are right about that.

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Thank you for the inspiration! .:)
Also, thank you for your very rare and refreshing response .:)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Except you don't link "your" website to your profile.
Nor do you credit what you copy and paste from that source. Which is something the owner of the site would do to be in alignment with the rule regarding posting articles from a third party source.

And,in doing this the owner of a site would also be promoting their own website.

You however do none of those things. Instead you post as if the text you share is your original thought.
Well, tell me something you want inserted into the website at a certain point and I will do it,
at least until you have the opportunity to see this miracle performed. :^)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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So!

How could God grant us free will if He always knew everything we would choose before creating us?

That's the key to success...
... if you can figure it out!

Nothing is impossible with God.

Luke 1:37.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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So!

How could God grant us free will if He always knew everything we would choose before creating us?

That's the key to success...
... if you can figure it out!

Nothing is impossible with God.

Luke 1:37.
If divine omniscience includes foreknowledge of people’s thoughts and events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2), including what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5), which "how" is incomprehensible to finite minds, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of His plan.
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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So!

How could God grant us free will if He always knew everything we would choose before creating us?

That's the key to success...
... if you can figure it out!

Nothing is impossible with God.

Luke 1:37.
I think there's a verse in Proverbs that helps with that.
16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

I think that verse reminds us we plan out our lives but humility and reliance in God's guidance is or should be at the forefront of our lives.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Let me rephrase that a bit...

How could God create us to be having free will? If what he was creating? All the choices would be foreknown?

How could God create a soul without knowing how that soul would choose?
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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Let me rephrase that a bit...

How could God create us to be having free will? If what he was creating? All the choices would be foreknown?

How could God create a soul without knowing how that soul would choose?
Great points.

God is sovereign and has dominion over his creation.

There are some ideologies out there that make God out to be a sadistic monster puppet master.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Great points.

God is sovereign and has dominion over his creation.

There are some ideologies out there that make God out to be a sadistic monster puppet master.
Well... the answer is found here.

When Jesus came to earth as a man?

Was he omniscient?

No... He truly made himself to be as a man.
A sinless man.

And, all things created were created THROUGH him.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him. Col 1:16

As a limited soul (as he was in the Incarnation)... all things he mentally created (in him)
were to be created by Deity as they came THROUGH him into being!

As Jesus, limiting himself as a man (like he did for the Incarnation) functioned as an ultra mega genius of creativity.
Whatever he thought should be created? Deity immediately produced as created!

There are mysteries that must wait to be revealed at only the right time.

grace and peace ..........
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I was on my way back to reply to your input re: Rom5 and saw this. If I may jump in to see how far we could go in refining this via the language, or that my understanding of what you're saying can be refined:

3:7 But whatever [things] were being (imperf) to/for me gain/profit/advantageous (valuable), these things I have considered/regarded and now consider/regard (perf) through/because of the Christ (dia ton Xriston) loss/disadvantage (of no value/good for nothing).....

.....Obviously, there's a lot going on here and IMO several things to workout in translation. It seems to me Paul wants to gain Christ, and he explains what that means (which we'd likely better understand through some accurate translation). Ultimately, he wants to know the power of Christ's resurrection, share in Christ's sufferings with a similar death and reach the goal of the resurrection. In this sense I think he wants to live a resurrection life in Christ now and reach the ultimate experience of the future resurrection (rewards, crowns, winning the race, etc...)

As for imputed righteousness, the righteousness he desires is certainly from God through Christ (with some specifics from translation re: pistis) and IMO imputation is yet to be determined and what it means was being discussed earlier by @NewLifeInChrist & @ChristRoseFromTheDead. @Pilgrimshope and others were also adding some things as I recall.

I think I also recall seeing you discuss here or elsewhere how righteousness is not left with an accredited or imputed sense apart from an experiential sense in the life of a Christian and IMO whatever Paul is saying about dikaiosunē here, he is including his living it out and being found with it (developed) as he pursues the goals he speaks of in 3:9-11.
I will begin by posting my assessment of the verses you have cited. Then we can discuss them in portions, or by points.

To lay a foundation, here is an interesting claim from Introduction to the New Testament section of The Newberry Reference Bible.

“THE ABSENCE OF THE ARTICLE in the Greek, especially in the instances in which the word “the” is requited by the idiom of the English language, shows that the word following is to be understood as CHARACTERISTIC. As Mat. 1. 1 “The book of the generation.” &c. John 1. 1 “And the word was God.”

I will apply this distinction between arthrous (having a definite article) and anarthrous (not having a definite article) nouns in interpreting the Greek text, which produces some interesting distinctions. In some or all places where Christ and God are anarthrous, it may be that they are being used as titles and so do not mean "what characterises Christ" and "what characterises God", but I will apply the "what characterises" sense to see what shakes out.

Also, I will apply a dynamic understanding of the combination of preposition + case, where the accusative case holds within it the idea of movement towards, the dative of a position at rest , and the genitive of movement away from.

So, dia + accusative case indicates coming towards the thing/person in order to pass through the thing/person to reach something or someone beyond.
And, en + dative case indicates being at rest/established in something/someone.
And, ek + genitive case indicates having the origin in something/someone and issuing out of that thing/person.
And dia + genitive case indicates something/someone moving away from something/someone after having passed through that thing/person to reach beyond.

After applying these dynamic concepts to the phrase, one can then find an English phrase that fits the sense and the context.

Phl 3:7 But what things (ἀλλ᾽ ἅτινα) were (ἦν) to/for me/resting at me gain (ἦν μοι κέρδη), those things (ταῦτα) I have counted and still do (ἥγημαι, perfect tense) through-toward/into the Christ (διὰ τὸν Χριστὸν, dia + acc.) loss (ζημίαν).

But whatever things were gain to me, those, since coming into Christ in order to go through Him to the Father, have I reckoned were loss.

To be continued....
 

PaulThomson

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Phl 3:7 But what things (ἀλλ᾽ ἅτινα) were (ἦν) to/for me/resting at me gain (ἦν μοι κέρδη), those things (ταῦτα) I have counted and still do (ἥγημαι, perfect tense) through-toward/into the Christ (διὰ τὸν Χριστὸν, dia + acc.) loss (ζημίαν).

But whatever things were gain to me, those, since coming into Christ in order to go through Him to the Father, have I reckoned were loss.

To be continued....
Oh! I lost all the colour formating by cutting and pasting this second half. I will re-colour it and post it again later, But this may serve to give the gist.


Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless (ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε), I am also reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι, present deponent) all things (πάντα) to be loss (ζημίαν εἶναι) through-toward (dia + acc.) the excellency (διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον) of the knowledge (τῆς γνώσεως) of Christ Jesus (Χριστοῦ Ἰησοu, anarthrous Christou IEsou) the Lord of me (τοῦ κυρίου μου): through-toward whom (δι᾽ ὃν) the all things (τὰ πάντα) I was plundered of (ἐζημιώθην, aorist passive), and I am reckoning (καὶ ἡγοῦμαι. present middle deponent) them dung/offal (σκύβαλα) to be (εἶναι, present infinitive), so that ( ἵνα) what is characteristic of Christ (Χριστὸν, anarthrous Christou) I might ultimately win/gain (κερδήσω, aorist subjunctive).

Yea without a doubt, I am also reckoning all things to be loss, through coming into the excellency of knowing that which characterises Christ Jesus, who is my Lord, in order to get to know the Father. Through coming into Him to get to the Father, I was ruined for all the things I used to value and I am now reckoning to be offal, in order that I might possibly gain, in the end, those things that characterise Christ.

Phl 3:9 And I be found (καὶ εὑρεθῶ, aorist passive subjunctive) positioned-at-rest-in-him (ἐν αὐτῷ, en + dat.), not having (μὴ ἔχων) mine own (ἐμὴν) righteousness (δικαιοσύνην) - the righteousness that issues from what is characteristic of law (τὴν ἐκ νόμου, ek + gen. with anarthrous nomou ) - but rather (ἀλλὰ) the righteousness (τὴν) through-positioned-resting-in what is characteristic of Christ’s faith/faithfulness (διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ, dia + gen. with anarthrous pisteOs), the originating-in-and-issuing-out-of-what-characterises-God-righteousness (τὴν ἐκ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην, ek + gen. with anarthrous theou) positioned-resting-upon the faith/faithfulness already mentioned (ἐπὶ τῇ πίστει, epi + dative with arthrous pistei):

And I might possibly be found, in the end, at rest within Him, not having a righteousness of my own - the righteousness that comes out of legalism – but rather having the righteousness that has come about through resting in what characterises Christ’s faith/fulness - the righteousness that originates in and comes out of what characterises God and is resting/relying upon the faithfulness [of Christ]; or is resting/relying upon faith Christ Christ has; or is resting/relying upon the doctrine of the faith:

Phl 3:10 having the righteousness of-from the to know (τοῦ γνῶναι) him (αὐτὸν), and having/to know the power (καὶ τὴν δύναμιν) of His resurrection (τῆς ἀναστάσεως αὐτοῦ), and having/to know the fellowship (καὶ τὴν κοινωνίαν) of His sufferings (τῶν παθημάτων αὐτοῦ), while being conformed (συμμορφούμενος, present passive participle) to His death (τῷ θανάτῳ αὐτοῦ);

[having the righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, and having the power of His resurrection, and having the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Note - If the accusatives "the power" and "the fellowship" are governed by having in v .8, then the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings are additions to the righteousness that comes from knowing Him;
In which case Paul wants to be found in the end having three things: the righteousness that comes from knowing Him; the power of His resurrection; and the fellowship of His sufferings while still being conformed to His death.

But perhaps the "kai" is appositional, "even"
[having the righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, even having the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.
In which case, You can't have this rigjhteousness without having the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Or, [having the righteousness] that comes from knowing Him, and knowing the power of His resurrection, and knowing the fellowship of His sufferings while being conformed to His death.

Note: If the accusatives "the power" and "the fellowship" are governed by "τοῦ γνῶναι" (to know by experience) then this righteousness comes from not just knowing Jesus Christ by experience, but also from knowing His resurrection by experience and from knowing the fellowship of His sufferings from experience, while at the same time being conformed to His death.
This sounds similar in sense to the case of the appositional kai above.

Note - This list of things are what "resting in what is characteristic of Christ's faith/faithfulness" entails; and these things originate in and come out of what is characteristic of God; and these things rest/rely upon the faith/fulness [of Christ], or these things rest/rely upon the the faith of Christ, or these things rest/rely upon the doctrine of the faith.
[I prefer the option of "Christ's faithfulness".]

Phl 3:11 If (εἴ ) by any means (πως) I might ultimately attain (καταντήσω, aorist active subjunctive) towards-into the resurrection (εἰς τὴν ἐξανάστασιν) of the dead (τῶν νεκρῶν).

If, by any means, in the end, I might possibly participate in the resurrection of the dead.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Funny thing is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it say we are credited with the Righteousness of Christ
Selah
Imputed, credited, ascribed, given as a gift?

Perfect righteousness is ascribed to everyone that believes in the death and resurrection
of Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the
abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even
the righteousness which is by faith.

Only one way to get that perfect righteousness and that's in the form of a free gift.
 

Magenta

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I think there's a verse in Proverbs that helps with that.
16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

I think that verse reminds us we plan out our lives but humility and reliance in God's guidance is or should be at the forefront of our lives.

Daniel 4 verse 35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14 verse 24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139 verse 16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16 verse 9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19 verse 21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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o lay a foundation, here is an interesting claim from Introduction to the New Testament section of The Newberry Reference Bible.

“THE ABSENCE OF THE ARTICLE in the Greek, especially in the instances in which the word “the” is requited by the idiom of the English language, shows that the word following is to be understood as CHARACTERISTIC. As Mat. 1. 1The book of the generation.” &c. John 1. 1 “And the word was God.”
Thank you for the work. Before interacting with you I was not familiar with Newberry but now have it linked for reference. As I recall Daniel Wallace wrote his dissertation on the Greek article and it's the longest section of instruction in his Greek Beyond the Basics book.

After applying these dynamic concepts to the phrase, one can then find an English phrase that fits the sense and the context.
IMO "these dynamic concepts" is a good way to approach translation. I think I previously highlighted your use of the preposition graphic that shows the dynamics of the flows indicated by the prepositions.

Phl 3:7 But what things (ἀλλ᾽ ἅτινα) were (ἦν) to/for me/resting at me gain (ἦν
μοι κέρδη), those things (ταῦτα) I have counted and still do (ἥγημαι, perfect tense) through-toward/into the Christ (διὰ τὸν Χριστὸν, dia + acc.) loss (ζημίαν).
The "resting at me" could be smoothed out a bit for English but it's good you're picking up the imperfect tense showing it was Paul's existing condition in the past.

But whatever things were gain to me, those, since coming into Christ in order to go through Him to the Father, have I reckoned were loss.
Some interesting thoughts based upon the dynamics. From here I think we can see how the Greek lexicons take the prepositions into nuances like causal, etc. I'd have to ponder the "through Him to the Father" insertion but I see why you've included it and how it compares to John14:6. IMO this dynamic translation is where we should begin. I've always retained the perspective with the prepositions but have allowed the lexicons to move me from it while knowing they can also include theological suppositions. My concern has always been that we are reading Greek and taking away it's specificity to accommodate our English way of thinking which is not Greek and does not have the detail of the Greek apart from getting very, very wordy.

As for me, this type of work in the Text helps me to get into the mind of the writers and compare my own experience and new mindset under grace. Paul's life was completely oriented to God vocationally, experientially, mentally, etc. He came to see that as dung. I was far from his orientation for 3-4 decades. If his past was dung, how do I find words to describe how I view my pre-Christ life.... "Loss" is understatement.

Nice work.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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@PaulThomson

I'd have to ponder the "through Him to the Father" insertion but I see why you've included it and how it compares to John14:6.
More thought re: this and apart from the editing time limit.

As I began to study the Text more deeply in Greek, and even before then, it was troubling to me to have been taught through men's phrases that conflicted with certain verses. Others don't have to share this trait, but I do throw it into discussion at times to see what response I may get.

There was a period of time I was focused (passive) in study of how Jesus was constantly referring to and acknowledging our Father and His reliance on Him and intent on doing His will. This of course plays out into Scripture like Hebrews where we're told He learned obedience (to our Father) through the things He suffered, and having become perfected (through faithful obedience to our Father)...

Then in Rom8 how we're referred to as Jesus' siblings (having the same Father).

For me this became an adjustment to my orientation. I understand Hebrews and other instruction re: seeing our Father in our Lord, but even this is ultimately a pointing to our Father.

I say all this to say I'm appreciating how you inserted this into the dynamic translation and am already pondering it more deeply. I'm recognizing how it compares to a focused study I was pointed to doing probably about a decade ago and that I have retained as part of my mindset.

It plays out when I might take a provocative stance re: sayings like, Faith Alone in Christ Alone. I understand where the saying came from and what it was intended to stand against and why it is adored and protected by many. But, for me, it detracts from the above and from the mindset of our first-born brother and Lord. It causes me to stop for a moment when I'm reading HIS WORD:

NKJ John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

It's amazing how these nuances in our Text compare and cause us to have to think on different levels. For example, there is extensive focus on being and abiding IN Christ. While at the same time HE spoke of coming to our Father THROUGH Him.

This is where the basic preposition chart shines IMO. It assists us in seeing some dynamic flow in how the mind of God worked to structure His Plan for His creation to share in/with Him in and through His Son, our first-born sibling and Lord.

Thanks, Paul Thomson. It would be nice if this is what these forums produced more of.