Understanding God’s election

[bluejean_bible]

Your contrarian agenda is worthy of pity.

While it is a blessing that,though you won't see it,you've just told us you are here to berate Scripture. And lead people to disbelieve God's words.

Rufus' agenda is of God's adversary.

Rufus is the name in scripture of the man the Roman guard forced to carry the cross when Jesus' strength failed him. He helped the Romans kill God.



Isaiah 46:10

“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.'”​

https://biblestudyforyou.com/bible-verses-about-predestination/
30 Powerful Bible Verses About Predestination (With Explanation)
Pastor David
July 29, 2024

 

[GWH]

God's love and justice were not addressed by you. The real issue is God covenantal, conditional love for his elect and his holy hatred for ALL that is evil!

And what if forgiving sin unconditionally "abets" sin? Isn't God's love eternal? Are you saying that sin is greater than God's eternal, unconditional love -- from which its objects can NEVER be separated (Rom 8:39)?

You still haven't answered my questions: Since you claim that God loves all men, regardless of their standing with Him and irrespective of their current spiritual condition, then why did God have to send his only Begotten Son into this world to atone for sin? Is it not written that "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8)? If this is true of the saints' love on the horizontal level, then how much more should it be for God's unconditional love on the vertical level whereby he loves sinners at least as much as he does the righteous! And maybe in your universe even more!

Also, did God love Jesus unconditionally?

And there's the issue sinners dying physically who were never aware of sin. You still haven't shown me from scripture how God could be just in allowing the very young or the mentally or emotionally handicapped to die. Isn't the wages of sin death!? But these people never knew they were sinners -- they never had a true knowledge of good and evil, so how could God allow them to die before attaining to a real knowledge of good and evil? And moreover, where do they go when they die? If you say, "heaven", then what is the judicial basis that God uses to allow them into his holy presence? Psalm 15 clearly tells us who may dwell in God's holy presence but the very young and the incompetent would not qualify for the obvious reasons stated in the Psalm.

Mat 7:7 doesn't say anything about God enabling sinners to repent and seek His salvation. Why do you continually read your presuppositions into scripture? Don't you realize that you're adding to God's Word, which is detestable to God!? And how ironic you appeal to God's enabling power when you do not believe for a nanosecond that his power that enables is efficacious. How totally duplicitous you are! Everyone here knows that you believe man's will is the final determinant in man's eternal destiny! The buck stops with the sinner, not God! So, why now do you pretend that God's enabling power is suddenly efficacious?

You truly have no shame, do you?

God hates all sin but loves all sinners, so he enables them to seek salvation
but does not abrogate their MFW because He loves a cheerful/willing giver.

The only way God could justly forgive sin was by paying the just penalty Himself.

No one truly loves who does not love God, who is the Spirit of love.

"love covers a multitude of sins" means that believers will be forgiven
because they love God and humanity, although imperfectly.

Do you believe God loved Jesus conditionally?

Again, Scripture does not state the destiny of pre-accountable souls,
but perhaps they share the fate of animals and simply pass out of existence.

If you tell someone to seek salvation, would you be playing an April fool's trick on them?

I do not presuppose God is all loving, but you presuppose He is not, which is blasphemous.

The buck stops with the sinner who rejects God's enabling power to seek salvation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Out of curiosity, according to scripture and only according to scripture, what exactly happens to those sinners who, through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent?

Simple.

Tom,5:13 (For until the law sin (hamartia) was in the world: but sin (hamartia) is not imputed, i.e. reckoned to one, when there is no law.

Hamartia is the word for a falling short, not the word for a transgression. Before the Mosaic Law came, men were falling short of God’s glory. But this falling short of the glory God had intended man to walk in was not being recorded on men’s records as sins.

14 Nevertheless physical death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned (hamartanO), i.e. fallen short, after the similitude of Adam's transgression (parabasis, a walk beside, not on, the designated path), who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam’s transgression was the transgression of a command, he wandered off the path God had set. Adam in his transgression is somehow analogous to the coming one, Christ. Because of Adam, physical death reigned over all his descendants, even those who had not transgressed any divine laws they had been given.

Those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" have fallen short of God's glory, i.e. of the glory God intended for mankind. But God does not impure falling short of His glory to a person's record. So, they will not be condemned to the second death at the judgment after resurrection.

 

[rogerg]

Tom,5:13 (For until the law sin (hamartia) was in the world: but sin (hamartia) is not imputed, i.e. reckoned to one, when there is no law.

Those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" have fallen short of God's glory, i.e. of the glory God intended for mankind. But God does not impure falling short of His glory to a person's record. So, they will not be condemned to the second death at the judgment after resurrection.

And the only way that there is no longer law for someone is when they become saved: only by Christ are they taken from under the law, otherwise, not, and by law, subject to God's judgment - there is no third alternative.

[Rom 5:11, 13, 15 KJV]
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ...
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ...
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[bluejean_bible]

And the only way that there is no longer law for someone is when they become saved: only by Christ are they taken from under the law, otherwise, not, and by law, subject to God's judgment - there is no third alternative.

[Rom 5:11, 13, 15 KJV]
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ...
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ...
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So, a Christian is permitted to steal?

 

[rogerg]

So, a Christian is permitted to steal?

God places Christians under greater scrutiny and correction regarding their actions than those who face law and legal penalties.
When a Christian acts in an un-Christian like/immoral, manner, God is quick and severe to punish and correct them.
But it does not affect their eternal salvation because they were saved by Christ's righteousness imputed to them, not
by their righteousness

[Pro 3:11,12 KJV]
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.

[Pro 22:15 KJV] 15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

 

[PaulThomson]

Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word used for sin in verse 9 is hamartia (which means a falling short of a set goal), not paraptOma (which means a walking to the side of rather than on a path). We are told in Rom. 5 that hamartia is not imputed to those who do not have laws. So, even though all, both Jews and Gentiles, are under hamartia, hamartia is not imputed to those without law. Hamartia is not recorded against them on their credit/debit rap. sheet. And those without the law are not under paraptOma, since they have no law to transgress against and fail to walk within.

However, the passage cited in vv. 10-12 was addressed to Israel, not to the Gentiles. it is Israel whom God is accusing of having committed paraptOma, not Gentiles. So, Paul is here telling the Jews that they do not have superior righteousness to the Gentiles, but the Gentiles, guilty only of non-imputable hamartia, are less guilty before God than Israel , who are guilty of imputable paraptOma.

So, it seems that you are someone who has misunderstood those verses.

 

[PaulThomson]

And the only way that there is no longer law for someone is when they become saved: only by Christ are they taken from under the law, otherwise, not, and by law, subject to God's judgment - there is no third alternative.

[Rom 5:11, 13, 15 KJV]
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ...
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ...
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Using only scripture, which law are people in the category under discussion under: those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" ?
The question you asked was -

rogerg said:
Out of curiosity, according to scripture and only according to scripture, what exactly happens to those sinners who, through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent?

Do all your cited verses apply to those people?

 

[rogerg]

The word used for sin in verse 9 is hamartia (which means a falling short of a set goal), not paraptOma (which means a walking to the side of rather than on a path). We are told in Rom. 5 that hamartia is not imputed to those who do not have laws. So, even though all, both Jews and Gentiles, are under hamartia, hamartia is not imputed to those without law. Hamartia is not recorded against them on their credit/debit rap. sheet. And those without the law are not under paraptOma, since they have no law to transgress against and fail to walk within.

However, the passage cited in vv. 10-12 was addressed to Israel, not to the Gentiles. it is Israel whom God is accusing of having committed paraptOma, not Gentiles. So, Paul is here telling the Jews that they do not have superior righteousness to the Gentiles, but the Gentiles, guilty only of non-imputable hamartia, are less guilty before God than Israel , who are guilty of imputable paraptOma.

So, it seems that you are someone who has misunderstood those verses.

So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

[Gal 6:16-17 KJV]
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

 

[PaulThomson]

So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

[Gal 6:16-17 KJV]
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Why does every Jew and Gentile in Christ being Israel and under one law, the Law of Christ, imply that all Jews and Gentiles who are outside of Christ must also be under one gospel law, even those who are impaired in some way so as not to be able to understand the gospel? Which scripture says all earthly Jews and Gentiles are spiritual Jews? What is the relevance of Gal. 6:16-17 have to do with your claim that precedes it in your post?

 

[rogerg]

Using only scripture, which law are people in the category under discussion under: those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" ?
The question you asked was -

rogerg said:
Out of curiosity, according to scripture and only according to scripture, what exactly happens to those sinners who, through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent?

Do all your cited verses apply to those people.

I don't understand your point. My initial post was to point out the flaw in the belief that one can become saved by
their choice to believe, because should someone think that way, then what happens to those who will never have an
opportunity to make that choice, but that in no way is my belief.

 

[rogerg]

Why does every Jew and Gentile in Christ being Israel and under one law, the Law of Christ, imply that all Jews and Gentiles who are outside of Christ must also be under one gospel law, even those who are impaired in some way so as not to be able to understand the gospel? Which scripture says all earthly Jews and Gentiles are spiritual Jews?

The earthly Jews and Gentiles whom God has saved, has He made into spiritual Jews - true Jews. There is only one spiritual Israel comprised of spiritual Jews.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't understand your point. My initial post was to point out the flaw in the belief that one can become saved by
their choice to believe, because should someone think that way, then what happens to those who will never have an
opportunity to make that choice, but that in no way is my belief.

Sorry, but if you cannot even follow your own arguments, I have little hope that you would understand mine or anyone else's.

 

[PaulThomson]

The earthly Jews and Gentiles whom God has saved, has He made into spiritual Jews - true Jews. There is only one spiritual Israel comprised of spiritual Jews.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of
rogerg said:
So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

That is not what you said in your post. You said,

rogerg said:
So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

 

[rogerg]

Sorry, but if you cannot even follow your own arguments, I have little hope that you would understand mine or anyone else's.

Perhaps you are the one who does not understand. But if you're saying it is not worth continuing this discussion further, I agree.

 

[rogerg]

That is not what you said in your post. You said,

rogerg said:
So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

What is your point specifically?

 

[Rufus]

Your contrarian agenda is worthy of pity.

While it is a blessing that,though you won't see it,you've just told us you are here to berate Scripture. And lead people to disbelieve God's words.

See how skilled you are at eisegesis! You even read your presuppositions into my posts.

Save your pity for yourself.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus is the name in scripture of the man the Roman guard forced to carry the cross when Jesus' strength failed him. He helped the Romans kill God.



Isaiah 46:10

“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.'”​

https://biblestudyforyou.com/bible-verses-about-predestination/
30 Powerful Bible Verses About Predestination (With Explanation)
Pastor David
July 29, 2024

You're very skilled at reading your garbage into scripture and people's posts, but you're desperately in need of remedial reading courses. Rufus did not carry Jesus' cross. His father did (Mk 15:21)!

Moreover Rufus, the son of the man who carried Jesus' cross, was one of God's very own chosen ones (Rom 16:13).

Also, an infinite, eternal Spirit (which God is!) cannot be killed! How do you kill a pure spirit? God had to become a man in order to die. God cannot die; God incarnate could, however! Have you never read:

Isa 57:15
15 For this is what the high and lofty One says —
he who lives forever, whose name is holy...?
NIV

See also Gen 21:33; Deut 33:27; Jn 4:24.

With your dismal reading skills, you should go hide in a corner somewhere and quit presuming you're equipped to teach anyone.anything! Plus your knowledge of the Word is as pathetic as your reading and interpretative skills. Get your own house in order before presuming to get anyone else's straightened out.

 

[Rufus]

The earthly Jews and Gentiles whom God has saved, has He made into spiritual Jews - true Jews. There is only one spiritual Israel comprised of spiritual Jews.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is a fascinating passage, Rog, when you consider that Peter's primary audience here were messianic Jews. Peter is telling those believing Jews that at one time they were not "a people" (i.e. God's people), even though God chose an entire nation with which to enter into a covenant relationship. This goes to the heart of what Paul taught in Rom 9 when he explains how there are two kinds of Jews -- those according to the flesh (physical descendants of Abraham) and those according to the promise.

 

[bluejean_bible]

See how skilled you are at eisegesis! You even read your presuppositions into my posts.

Save your pity for yourself.

No.
You claim I post presuppositions while you deny what God says when he tells us he predetermined all things.

Your failed effort at delivering insult to me shows you are unable to rightly discern Scripture.

You and those like you who think to try to did empower God are are a tragic example as to the lengths the desperate here will go to.

Btw,just so you know. The Bible isn't actually the word of God,though we refer to it as such because it is a commonly known title.

Jesus, Immanuel, is The Word of God.

The god you and others promote and defend is not the Creator of all existence. God is a power,an energy, the human consciousness cannot fully fathom.
However,when Scripture tells us ,gives us insight,as to what God is,and you and others insist that isn't true, your denial of the all mighty to its fullest manifestation of its,his,own inspired words tells me, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The objective of you and those like you is to talk us away from God's truth.

I'm doing so,you reiterate it.

God forgive you.