John 3 and Water Baptism in the Ministry of Jesus Christ
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just yankin' your chain, bro...
Yesterday at 7:52 AM
#238
homwardbound said:
then why did Peter say water Baptism is a good conscience towards God?
because that's what it is. We are baptized for forgiveness for our sins, which gives us a clear conscience... he compared it to how Noah's family was "cleansed" from sinful mankind by the washing away of sin (sinners) in the waters of the flood. "baptism, which corresponds to this, (the flood) now saves us...." not because it's a ceremonial washing of dirt off our bodies.... it's an act of obedience to God, and an appeal for a clear conscience.
homwardbound said:
Then water Baptism came after the fact off being saved, willingly they did it
This, as has been discussed and explained MANY times, was a one-time event to show the Jewish Christians, who did not want to baptize the Gentiles (Cornelius family) because they thought it was only for Jews. God, through Peter showed the Jews that the Gentiles were, in fact, approved... by allowing the Spirit to manifest in them by speaking in tongues. Then the Jews relented, and allowed them to be baptized. It was NOT a decision by Cornelius after the fact. This was a watershed moment for the Jewish Christians, and Cornelius' Gentile family was the teaching mechanism.
homwardbound said:
I see God took away all sin on the cross he went to willing in his shed blood as done once for us all.
You quoted below!
All sin IS forgiven, for those that choose to follow Jesus, and obey God. it's not an automatic forgiveness for everyone, otherwise, God should just end the world now, since there is nothing left to accomplish. Silly...
Okay, you know more than I do, thank you above God who said it was finished for us to beleive God in Son's done work for us all. Okay you add water Baptism or you not in, how many other laws you put in the law of Love to all?
A good conscience, is seeing the deck cleared by God in bed g reconciled to God through Son's done w work for them.
In appreciation one does do things led new to do, and water Baptism is out the door
presently
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
So Spirit Baptism happened and so then is water Baptism ritual over or not
Whoever decides to be water Baptized, please do it in a good conscience between God and you too, thank you not forced, chose willingly. If you get any ritual going, if it is not a good conscience between God and you then it is baloney and under Law to get stuff
Thanks as you do already know this truth too, thank you
Oh and Noah and the others, wife kids and their wives were not saved by being put under water
They did not drown, God saved them from being drowned and you want to drown orthers, why?
How do you get baptized in the Spirit? Where is that described in scripture?
Pentecost, revealed, and it is not having to speak in Tongues. God does this Spirit Baptism and each person knows it personally between God and them, no need to impress anyone.
As, each person knows whether or not they are in or not according to them believing God over everything else, Son is risen where new life for our soul is given by God, not others at all. (Romans 8) Flesh dead, yet held alive by God (Acts 17:28)
Therefore if you haven't gone personally to God in prayer to hear and know truth over error, without wanting to gain anything in return for doing it, then you will see truth and be new in love and mercy to all too, even those you hate, that did you wrong, you will forgive them too, willingly and that might take awhile to see it being born new to grow up into the maturity of God. (Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6, Since no flesh pleases God but Son's that did it and condemned all sin of flesh as dead first. Then resurrection for each to choose to believe God or not in risen Son with all sin taken out of the way for each person in personal belief from Dad's view, eventually sees it in amazement to me at least, still amazed over it, learning, learned, learning Luke 21:14-15, Matthew 10:16-20 trusting no one else, not even self anymore
I guess this is the answer to my question.....
So, when Peter, at Pentecost, told the gathering that had asked him what they should do, to repent, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, THEN they would receive the Holy Spirit.... how does that match your narrative?
It sounds pretty simple to me.... repent (turn away from sin) and be baptized (immersed in water) for forgiveness of sins, and then we will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit... If I was a first century person, hearing that message, I would know EXACTLY what Peter meant. There was no knowledge at all of an indwelling Spirit at that time. When Peter said to be baptized, they all KNEW that he meant immersion in water. That was what baptism WAS/IS. Saying we are baptized in the Spirit is more of a metaphor for what happens when we become indwelt with the Spirit after water baptism.... our spirit/soul is being immersed in God's Holy Spirit.... a spiritual baptism.
Yeah Peter was preaching the gospel and they all Heard it and responded because they believed the gospel and Peter preaching to them
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
….Therefore being a prophet, ( David is being quoted ) and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, ( Peter just told them they crucified thier messiah ) and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Acts 2:22-24, 30-33, 36-37
The message of God loving us so much he gave his only son for our sins and raising him up for our justification is meant to prick the heart think of the message ( your perfect and in ice t king and lord suffered and died to save you …..
that message is meant to soften and reach the hearts of broken and lost people to save them and call them home there’s no secret sauce the preaching of the gospel is where faith originates everyone’s capable of hearing it but some will reject it
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48
for instance some reject this when they hear Jesus teaching it
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Others accept it and embrace it because Jesus taught it and they recognize it’s immense value tonthier inderrrsnding if God thier Heavenly Father also according to jesus
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9
It’s hearing this message that creates the ability to believe it as with anything we can’t o is what Jesus said until we listen to it because we believe in him
“So, when Peter, at Pentecost, told the gathering that had asked him what they should do, to repent, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, THEN they would receive the Holy Spirit.... how does that match your narrative? “
watch how this happens in a different order
“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ….The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. …..For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:34-37, 42-44, 46-48 KJV
the Holy Ghost is a promise Jesus made to believers and it’s what John said Jesus would give baptism for remission of sins is what Jesus commanded his disciples to do preach the gospel to all people and baptize them in his name for remission of sins
many people miss that Jesus did command his diisciples to baptize for remission of sins in his name and thisnisnt replaced by John saying Jesus would baptize with the spirit … that was about pentocost
John said
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
Matthew 3:11 KJV
a Jesus just before they received the spirit
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Acts 1:5 KJV
then a few days later it’s fulfilled
“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
Acts 2:3-4
Jesus has baptized them
with Holy Ghost and fire now like John said
When Jesus said His sheep hear His voice, was He simply referring to physical hearing?
Do only His sheep hear His voice?
Is the word of God His voice?
Not really, because Pentecost and the rest of the history in Acts were special cases as the OT transitioned to the NT.
The normative answer is indicated by doctrinal writings beginning with Acts 16:30-31 and 1Cor.12:13,
so the proper question is "how does one become saved?" Thus, the complete normative answer is
"by believing in Jesus as Messiah and Lord", with what that implies.
The story you are not buying is what you are omitting/ignoring/cutting out of my post:
The normative answer is indicated by doctrinal writings beginning with Acts 16:30-31 and 1Cor.12:13,
so the proper question is "how does one become saved?" Thus, the complete normative answer is
"by believing in Jesus as Messiah and Lord", with what that implies.
So, what story DO you buy instead of this truth?
The Apostle Paul was still preaching the same message presented at Pentecost some 20+ years later. This account provides evidence that the same requirements pertain to everyone and will continue to do so until Jesus returns.
Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? Paul's question indicates people can believe but have yet to receive the Holy Ghost. This truth is confirmed in the Samaritans account as well. (Acts 8:12-18)
We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.
And for years afterward, Paul continued sharing the truth with both Jews and Gentiles:
"And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:8-10
"
again, for the 150th time (at least)
The story of Cornelius' family is NOT the norm. It was a one-time happening, for a SPECIFIC purpose. It happened so that the Jewish Christians would see for themselves that Gentiles were accepted by God, and that they (Jewish Christians) should NOT prevent them from being baptized, which apparently they were doing.
I mean, read the whole story of Peter and his vision on the rooftop.... the WHOLE story is about the revelation to the Jews that Gentiles are also acceptable to God...
God let his Spirit enter Cornelius' family to PROVE this point. Then what happened? They were immediately baptized. This is NOT the normal sequence of events... it was SPECIAL.
The story that Peter gave as the definitive answer to the question of "what do we, as sinners, need to do to repent from our sins and be saved?"
That instruction was established at Pentecost, and is the understood/assumed beginning of joining the body of Christ. All other discussions of salvation after that point are based on this known/understood "first step".
Of COURSE salvation depends on belief.
Of COURSE salvation depends on faith.
Those two things, which logically come after hearing about Jesus and his sacrifice for us, are the steps preceding repentance and baptism, which is the culmination.... at which point, having obeyed God's command, we receive the free gift of salvation, and the Spirit of God comes and indwells us, as new believers. ......
It is not just one thing... it's not just belief.... even demons believe. It's not just faith...
"have you received the Holy Spirit?" "we didn't even know there WAS such a thing"..... the immediate first question was "whose baptism were you baptized with?" the answer "John's baptism.... " which did NOT include receiving the Spirit... so, they were baptized in the name of Jesus... and received the Spirit...
They know, they most certainly know.
They dismiss it because they must.
Faith Alone Regeneration Theology demands it.
“The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.”
Acts 15:6-9 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.15.7-9.ESV
Peter says here that the Apostles, Elders, and the House of Cornelius all received the Holy Spirit in the same way with no distinction. The greek word used for no in “no distinction” is not a simple no. It is a compound word that means ”not one”. So there was not one distinction between the way the House of Cornelius, the Apostles, and the elders present received the Holy Spirit. Seems like he is saying that the story of Cornelius is the norm. If it was not the norm wouldn’t there be a distinction? Notice how he says their hearts were cleansed by faith and not by water baptism. Notice also that this was the reason there was no distinction. The hearts of the Apostles and the Elders had also been cleansed by faith.
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
Ephesians 1:13 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.13.ESV
I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. He's not describing HOW they received the Spirit, he's simply saying that they all DID receive the Spirit. We received the Spirit, and these elders received the Spirit, and now these Gentiles received the Spirit.
It's not saying HOW, it's saying IT HAPPENED.
Remember it says not one distinction. That means everything was the same not just that it happened, but also how it happened. In Acts 15:8 the word kathos is used to describe how they received the Holy Spirit, meaning that the Apostles, elders, and the House of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit in the same manner. Peter always made the case that it wasn’t different. He says this in Acts 10:47 and the Acts 11 account also.
““Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?””
Acts 10:47 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.10.47.ESV
“So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” But Peter began and explained it to them in order: “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””
Acts 11:2-18 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.11.3-18.ESV
Notice that Peter says they received the gift when they believed. He doesn’t say they received the gift upon water baptism.
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
Ephesians 1:13 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.13.ESV