The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

GRACE_ambassador · 2025-04-22T15:13:36-0400

Precious friends, is there not A BIG Difference in:

man says MUST obey to "keep" salvation vs:

God Says:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,

( By Grace ye Are Saved; ) ... For By Grace Are ye Saved through faith; and that

not of yourselves: it is The GIFT of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(Ephesians 2:5, 8-9 AV)

(Excellent @mailmandan, "NO supplements needed!")

Now, man says MUST obey good works or lose it (God's Gift By GRACE)?

God Says in verse 10:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them."

{ for "rewards" According To God In 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV, Correct? }

Further Multitude (of Plain and Clear Scriptures) Of God's OPERATION at The
Very Moment of "Salvation By Grace!":

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth!:

LORD Jesus, Please help us all to humbly , prayerfully, and Carefully pay attention to:

ALL Thy Wonderful Words Of Life!

Amen.

mailmandan · 2025-04-22T15:13:42-0400

Lamar said:

So, you admit it. Your eisegesis culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Magenta · 2025-04-22T15:14:57-0400

decipher said:

What many are not realizing is that salvation is a state of being produced by the Father and Son when the Son baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, according to Isaiah 63: 9-10, is the angel of His presence. In otherwords, where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. So the Holy Spirit is a portal through which the invisible God can enter the being indwelled. The Son is the temple of the Father because the Son is filled with the Holy Spirit of the Father. Because the Son loves the Father and obeys Him, he is one with the Father and the image of the invisible God, the Father. Scripture clearly explains "oneness" as receiving the Holy Spirit and being connected to the Father. Through this portal, which we receive when we get baptized with the Holy Spirit, we are born again because the Father, through the Son, through the Holy Spirit, reside in our being and perfect us by filling us with the same divine love that the Father and Son share. We are born again by the will of God the Father when our motivation for living changes from love of self first to divine love for God first and all others as we love ourselves. This is how we do the will of the Father, when the motivation for every thought and action is love. Also, this is how we become one with the Father and Son.

Revelation 3 verse 8; Luke 13 verse 24 ~ Behold, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

mailmandan · 2025-04-22T15:20:11-0400

Lamar said:

It's not about how much. It's about the OBJECT of our faith which must be 100% in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Now answer my question. How much obedience does it take?

You already admitted that you advocate salvation by faith AND WORKS in post #1,699.

Salvation by faith AND WORKS is no boogie man and is taught by many folks.

Lamar · 2025-04-22T17:09:45-0400

Jimbone said:

I think it honestly boils down to how we look at the works we do, I believe those that teach works are what we have to do to stay saved are wrong plain and simple. We don't do works FOR salvation, but we do work BECAUSE of salvation. He saves us to do works; He empowers us to do works in His name. He gets the glory for any of the work we do in His name by His power. It just depends on who you think is the source of these good works and who gets the glory for them in your heart.

Many people here teach that we have to work to stay saved, I see it as, we WILL work because He saved us. They teach a works based cosmic probation that puts the full weight of our salvation squarely on our shoulders and makes it 100% dependent on us. This is not true and not the truth, it's in fact the opposite of what Jesus tells us it is.

When we are born-again God is literally resurrecting our dead spirit and reconciling it to Himself, making us spiritually alive for the first time in our lives. This connects us to God for real, in real life, and changes us from the inside out. It changes our whole perception, our desires and priorities, our habits, it exposes sin in our lives that we never even thought of as sinful and brings us into His kingdom. Now we KNOW the truth and by His power and Spirit go forth to proclaim His glory and salvation to the world, we by His power go forth and do works, nothing we can boast in ourselves in, but that we point to Jesus and say "He gets the glory, He is the only reason I'd do any of these things. Any good you see in me or "good" see me do, that's Jesus 100%"

This is the divide, who gets the glory and credit for these works? Those who seem to ignore the spirit side tend to teach we "better" obey good enough and those who teach all glory to God say He is the reason for any work I do.

"I believe those that teach works are what we have to do to stay saved are wrong plain and simple."

"Many people here teach that we have to work to stay saved,"

"They teach a works based cosmic probation that puts the full weight of our salvation squarely on our shoulders and makes it 100% dependent on us."

Do you know of any person or group that exactly asserts this?

Not infers but actually states this?

Yes or no plus your comments please.

Lamar · 2025-04-22T17:50:06-0400

mailmandan said:

100%??? What a high bar to set. Have you met such an imposing standard?

Do you really think God expects perfection from us poor imperfect beings before bestowing His grace. You make it sound like God is a tyrant, expecting more from us than we can give.

Mailmandan, no one can give 100%. Not even you.

Get off your high horse and dwell with us common folk.

On your question about how much obedience?

It is not about a percentage but a humbleness of heart, a spirit of obedience.

Much like many in the Bible.

I don't sense that with you.

Inquisitor · 2025-04-22T18:48:41-0400

mailmandan said:

How much obedience does it take? Romans 4:4 -
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

We are justified by faith, and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) So, how much obedience must we accomplish and "add" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sows to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Seeking salvation by works is not obedience and is a false gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Imperfect obedience cannot save you. (Romans 3:23) Only Jesus can save you. (Romans 6:23)

How do you understand the following verse.

Revelation 3:16
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

mailmandan · 2025-04-22T19:13:35-0400

Lamar said:

Yes. My faith trusts 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation. Are you trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation or are you trusting 50% in Jesus Christ for salvation and 50% in works? Or perhaps 75% in Jesus Christ for salvation and 25% in works?

Who said anything about perfection? Trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation does not require perfection on our part. It requires humility by acknowledging our sin, lack of righteousness and complete need for Jesus to save us. Speaking of perfection, that is what it would take to be saved by works. Sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, but of course, we have all failed. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) Now in regard to God being a tyrant, I don't see Him that way at all after becoming a Christian. Yet prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I saw God as a tyrant who could not wait to punish me every time I messed up!

I did not say give 100%. I said trust 100%.

LOL! Trust me. I'm not on a high horse. I am not trusting 100% in my works for salvation or even 50% in Jesus Christ and 50% in works for salvation. I'm trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Now in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14) in contrast to those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: I am instead, like the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise my eyes to heaven, and beating my breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’

Your answer is vague and doesn't really answer my question on how much obedience. You seem hasty to judge me as being self-righteous and on a high horse, which demonstrates to me that you did not properly understand what I meant by trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation. You seem to think I'm trusting 100% in myself to please Jesus or something along that line.

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you believe in/have faith in/are trusting in for salvation. I can assure you that my answer will not be Lord, Lord, didn't WE. (Matthew 7:22-23) Instead it will be Lord, Lord, didn't YOU. ✝️

mailmandan · 2025-04-22T19:37:01-0400

Inquisitor said:

In regard to the church of the Laodiceans. Revelation 3:15 - "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (this church makes Jesus sick) 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

We overcome by faith. (1 John 5:4)

Keep in mind that in various churches, it's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians and Jesus is addressing these churches as a whole. Like the lifeless state of the church in Sardis in Revelation 3:1-4 - "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

Inquisitor · 2025-04-22T19:59:50-0400

Lamar said:

How do you read this verse.

Galatians 5:21-22
Envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you,
that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

mailmandan said:

Are you saying that the Laodicean church did not believe in Jesus?

A nominal Christian?

mailmandan · 2025-04-22T20:05:16-0400

Inquisitor said:

I'm not saying that all of them did not. I'm just saying it's not hard to find a mixture of genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians in various churches mixed together. Look at the church in Sardis. A few is not a lot of genuine Christians.

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · 2025-04-22T23:16:01-0400

Lamar said:

Yeah, I agree with you that it's not about percentages or quantity of obedience.

God considers a person as belonging to Him if they abide or walk in the Holy Spirit which the Father gives to His people when they get saved. The Holy Spirit is there seal of God's ownership.

The key thing is to maintain their part of the fellowship and not resist Him or leave Him, remaining faithful to Him until God sends them home to Himself. This faithfulness and growing obedience to Him is a work of the Spirit, not of the person submitting to Him.

But we have free will and (surprisingly) some people do leave Him and don't come back. Such people shouldn't expect to end up with God or receive eternal life just because they followed Him at some previous time.

So it's not about amount or percentage of obedience. Obedience becomes automatic as long as the believer remains and submits to God's work in them.

🎻

Inquisitor · 2025-04-22T23:18:58-0400

mailmandan said:

The blood of Jesus will save everyone who calls on His name, that is a fact!

Yet, it appears that one can disqualify themselves by not walking the walk, not bearing the fruit.

I don't think everyone understands the difference here and why.

That is how a lukewarm Christian can disqualify themselves; they believe but they bare no fruit.

They believe but there lamps go out.

The N.T. is clear that talking the talk demands walking the walk.

Inquisitor · 2025-04-22T23:39:42-0400

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

That's spot on.

Walking the walk simply means you believe in Jesus.

If you no longer, walk the walk, then you no longer believe in Jesus.

That is not a works based salvation.

Because our salvation belongs to Jesus alone.

Simply, faith without works is a dead faith.

HeIsHere · 2025-04-23T11:12:32-0400

Inquisitor said:

I guess the thief on the cross had a dead faith then.

HeIsHere · 2025-04-23T11:16:18-0400

Inquisitor said:

At what point in time, a day, a month, a year, two years.. ten years, at the point of physical death or does God say "too late?"

And you still have not told me how a person can assume a debt once the debt has been expunged from the account?

HeIsHere · 2025-04-23T11:26:58-0400

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

It actually is.
It is replacing Christ's obedience (100%) with your own.
And because it known that 100% is not possible, the standard becomes well as long as we try our best.

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · 2025-04-23T11:52:48-0400

HeIsHere said:

Do you even understand English?

Nothing you've written replies to what I wrote.

🎻

HeIsHere · 2025-04-23T12:00:38-0400

I see nothing humorous about a doctrine which nullifies the work of Christ Jesus and makes God's plan of salvation quite impotent.

But when there is no defense, I guess that is the response.

Smoke · 2025-04-23T12:12:59-0400

HeIsHere said:

I've heard people ask if Jesus was giving an impossible commandment when He commanded the woman to "go, and sin no more". The common response is "No, it's to be taken as Him telling us to strive to do our best and repent when we do sin".

I understand that it makes the most sense to interpret the scripture this way, but I feel like I'm trying to make the bible conform to MY thoughts as opposed to the words in the bible dictating my thoughts.

When I read it, I feel like it is in fact an impossible commandment He gives us. Nevertheless, we are offered redemption through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic about it being an impossible commandment?

The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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