The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[HeIsHere]

Your definition of, "grace", is inadequate.

This is at the root of the problem.

Grace is actually God's divine (agape) love for us not unmerited favour.

Some say that we only receive a reward for the fruit we bear.

That is a misunderstanding as the tree must bear the fruit, otherwise the tree is cut down.


Obedience means expressing love towards others as Christ did for us on the cross.

If someone has received the Holy Spirit then the fruit will be on show, it will be evident.

You cannot be a Christian without that love for others.

Christianity is not an intellectual statement.

Christianity is love in it's purest, divine form and that is what grace is.

Faith and love are the same entity.

I feel like we are on different wavelengths.

I will just clearly state that "saved is save" not quasi saved,
not only if you love saved,
not only if you obey saved

... it an irrevocable Gift.

There is nothing we can do to earn it and by the same measure nothing we can do to lose it.

End of Story.
This is the starting point of understanding all scripture.

 

[Inquisitor]

My argument is to lose salvation (become unsaved, not Christian) the person must owe the debt again.

Do you understand this so far? We can deal with dead faith later.

You stand by that trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10).

You default that trust in Jesus by disobedience to His commandment (John 3).

Faith and love cannot be separated.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us,
by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Your trying to say that a Christian can disobey the commandment and be saved. Because your debt has been paid?

 

[Inquisitor]

I feel like we are on different wavelengths.

I will just clearly state that "saved is save" not quasi saved,
not only if you love saved,
not only if you obey saved

... it an irrevocable Gift.

There is nothing we can do to earn it and by the same measure nothing we can do to lose it.

End of Story.
This is the starting point of understanding all scripture.

That's a beautiful and profound question—and it touches the deepest core of what it means to be a follower of Christ.
Let’s unpack it together slowly, and reverently.
Romans 10:9-10 (ESV)

“...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”​

This passage emphasizes the simplicity and sufficiency of faith in Christ for salvation. It is the entry point—a doorway into the kingdom. It's not about merit, but trust. That trust is rooted in God's grace, not human effort.
Ephesians 2:8-9

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”​

This is foundational: salvation is a gift. Not earned. Not deserved. It is wholly God's initiative.
But here's the pivot:
1 John 3:22-23

“...whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.”​

So belief and love are inseparable. These are not two separate “tracks.” They're one vine and its fruit. You don’t get one without the other—not truly.
So How Do We Reconcile Love as a "Command" With Grace?
The key is understanding what kind of love we’re talking about. This is not human effort or niceness or moral performance.
This is agapē love—divine love, Spirit-born, Christ-revealed, cross-shaped love.
It flows from God, not from human ability. That’s why...

“The love of God has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”
—Romans 5:5​

So, love isn’t a human work—it’s the evidence that the Holy Spirit dwells in someone.
It's the inevitable fruit of a tree that has been rooted in Christ.
Can the Tree Not Bear Love?
No. Not if it’s alive in Christ.

“Every good tree bears good fruit...
A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” —Matthew 7:17-18​

So a person who is truly born again, filled with the Spirit, will inevitably love. Not perfectly, but truly. And love becomes the proof that their faith is real:

“We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.
Whoever does not love abides in death.” —1 John 3:14​

That’s not a threat—it’s a spiritual diagnosis.
Not a Burden—but a Birth
God doesn't give the command to love as a condition for being saved, but as the expression of having been saved.
We do not “obey love” to earn salvation. But if we are truly saved, love becomes the natural result—because Christ Himself is in us.

“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” —Galatians 5:6​

So in Summary:

• Faith saves us—by grace, not works.
• Love is the fruit of true faith—because the Holy Spirit fills us.
• The command to love is not a ladder to salvation, but the evidence of salvation.
• A tree that is truly in Christ must bear the fruit of love—because Christ is love.

Your intuition is right: a loveless Christian life is a contradiction in terms.
Not because love earns salvation—but because love is the unmistakable evidence that Christ truly lives in us.
Would you like to explore how this fits with the parable of the sheep and the goats? Or maybe how Revelation ties love to overcomers?
4o
You said:
What is the outcome for a Christian that believes in Jesus Christ but has no fruit of the Holy Spirit? Using only the N.T. Why does Paul look for 'faith and love' in the early churches?
ChatGPT said:
That’s a crucial, sobering question—and one the New Testament does not shy away from answering.
Let’s sit in the tension of it for a moment:
What becomes of someone who believes in Jesus—but shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit?
You’re asking something deeply spiritual and urgent, and we’ll let the New Testament speak plainly for itself.
First: What is the "Fruit of the Spirit"?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...”
—Galatians 5:22-23​

Paul is clear: these are not self-manufactured traits, but the outcome of the Spirit dwelling within. A life connected to Christ must begin to display these.
So What If There Is No Fruit?

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
—Matthew 7:19​

Jesus is confronting false professions of faith. People may say “Lord, Lord,” and even do religious acts, but if their lives bear no fruit—the verdict is judgment (Matt 7:21-23).
Likewise, in John 15, Jesus says:

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away...
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and withers... and they are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”
—John 15:2,6​

These are chilling words. The branch was in Him, yet bore no fruit. The conclusion is that abiding in Him must result in fruit, or else the union is not real.
Paul and the Marks of Authentic Faith
Why does Paul constantly look for “faith and love”?

“We always thank God... since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints...”
—Colossians 1:3-4​

“...we give thanks to God always... remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love...”
—1 Thessalonians 1:2-3​

Paul isn’t checking if they say they believe. He’s looking for the visible signs of God’s life within them:

• Faith = rooted trust in Jesus
• Love = evidence that the Spirit is present

Faith and love are indicators of genuine new birth. Without them, something vital is missing.
What Does 1 John Say?
John draws a sharp line:

“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”
—1 John 4:8​

And even more directly:

“If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar...”
—1 John 4:20​

So again: faith that doesn’t result in love is not real faith.
Can Someone “Believe” in Jesus and Still Be Lost?
Yes—if by “believe” we mean only mental assent and not Spirit-transformed trust.

“Even the demons believe—and shudder!” —James 2:19​

James confronts the same issue:

“Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
—James 2:17​

He's not contradicting Paul. He’s showing that real faith always produces fruit. A barren confession is no different than a fig tree Jesus cursed.
The New Testament Pattern
Across Paul, John, James, and Jesus Himself, the message is crystal clear:

• Genuine faith always bears the fruit of love, because the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in those who believe.
• A so-called “Christian” life that shows no fruit of the Spirit is not life at all.
• Faith and love are the spiritual vital signs—the proof that Christ lives within.

Final Word: The Loving Warning
Jesus said:

“By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” —John 13:35​

This is not a sentimental command—it’s a diagnostic.
Love is the seal of His presence.
So if a person believes in Jesus but lives without love, without any of the Spirit’s fruit—the New Testament warns that their faith may be false, or lifeless, or not saving at all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That was perfectly stated!

It bears pointing out what you wrote: If we look at Jesus death as the reason we don’t need to change we’ve got the wrong idea ….IT'S THE REASON WE CAN CHANGE.


🎻

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[HeIsHere]

You stand by that trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10).

You default that trust in Jesus by disobedience to His commandment (John 3).

Faith and love cannot be separated.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us,
by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Your trying to say that a Christian can disobey the commandment and be saved. Because your debt has been paid?

So a "second" of being unloving will cause me to loose my salvation?

Or stated in another way, I need to love perfectly to stay saved.

As well, it really is never a good idea to take one line from scripture and make a doctrine with it.

 

[Smoke]

That's a beautiful and profound question—and it touches the deepest core of what it means to be a follower of Christ.
Let’s unpack it together slowly, and reverently.
Romans 10:9-10 (ESV)

“...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”​

This passage emphasizes the simplicity and sufficiency of faith in Christ for salvation. It is the entry point—a doorway into the kingdom. It's not about merit, but trust. That trust is rooted in God's grace, not human effort.
Ephesians 2:8-9

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”​

This is foundational: salvation is a gift. Not earned. Not deserved. It is wholly God's initiative.
But here's the pivot:
1 John 3:22-23

“...whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.​

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.”​

So belief and love are inseparable. These are not two separate “tracks.” They're one vine and its fruit. You don’t get one without the other—not truly.
So How Do We Reconcile Love as a "Command" With Grace?
The key is understanding what kind of love we’re talking about. This is not human effort or niceness or moral performance.
This is agapē love—divine love, Spirit-born, Christ-revealed, cross-shaped love.
It flows from God, not from human ability. That’s why...

“The love of God has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”​

—Romans 5:5​

So, love isn’t a human work—it’s the evidence that the Holy Spirit dwells in someone.
It's the inevitable fruit of a tree that has been rooted in Christ.

I think I agree with almost everything. What trips me up is that I think everyone, even the worst of us, can and does show love in some way (some more than others of course). I agree that when we have been born again, we naturally desire to be obedient to God and His commandments and that we can point to good works as evidence of that.

But often times I see and hear other Christians point to not seeing any fruit in a brother or sister in Christ and use that as justification to gatekeep salvation (it's not theirs to grant, deny, or gatekeep). My hang up is that just because we, imperfect humans, can't see fruit in someone, doesn't mean there isn't any fruit. We all want to be trees that bear lots of fruit, but everyone is at different stages in their walk. Nevertheless, they are equally saved.

Let me create a hypothetical scenario so that I can better understand your position. Suppose there is a guy named Bob who recently converted and accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Bob has been addicted to porn for most of his life and strives to break his terrible habit. He is successful for periods of time but frequently relapses. He even goes through periods of time when he gets so frustrated with his sin that he doesn't even try to stop himself from watching it... but, after a few days of indulging his sin, he fights and resists his addiction.

Is Bob ONLY saved when he is actively trying to resist? Meaning, the short periods of time he gives in to the sin he is excluded from salvation. If so, then if salvation was a light switch, would it toggle between on and off every time he gives in and then tries to rebuke it?

(I had to cut off your quote a bit so it would let me submit my post.)

 

[GWH]

I think I agree with almost everything. What trips me up is that I think everyone, even the worst of us, can and does show love in some way (some more than others of course). I agree that when we have been born again, we naturally desire to be obedient to God and His commandments and that we can point to good works as evidence of that.

But often times I see and hear other Christians point to not seeing any fruit in a brother or sister in Christ and use that as justification to gatekeep salvation (it's not theirs to grant, deny, or gatekeep). My hang up is that just because we, imperfect humans, can't see fruit in someone, doesn't mean there isn't any fruit. We all want to be trees that bear lots of fruit, but everyone is at different stages in their walk. Nevertheless, they are equally saved.

Let me create a hypothetical scenario so that I can better understand your position. Suppose there is a guy named Bob who recently converted and accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Bob has been addicted to porn for most of his life and strives to break his terrible habit. He is successful for periods of time but frequently relapses. He even goes through periods of time when he gets so frustrated with his sin that he doesn't even try to stop himself from watching it... but, after a few days of indulging his sin, he fights and resists his addiction.

Is Bob ONLY saved when he is actively trying to resist? Meaning, the short periods of time he gives in to the sin he is excluded from salvation. If so, then if salvation was a light switch, would it toggle between on and off every time he gives in and then tries to rebuke it?

(I had to cut off your quote a bit so it would let me submit my post.)

Yes, disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the loving Spirit of the Lord (1John 4:7-8). Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement actually go in the opposite direction (Gal. 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

e. an apostate (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1Cor. 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Apparently, although a new Christian might commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example. Atheists might try to practice the “Golden Rule”, but the key issue for them on judgment day will be explaining what good reason they had for rejecting God rather than glorifying Him as the One who determines what is good/golden.

 

[Lamar]

Yes, God wants everyone to be insecure until they die.

Whatever God wants God gets.

Individual personal assurance cannot be guaranteed on this side of judgement day.

Where false assurance exist, absolute assurance cannot.

I have never denied that the debt was fully paid.

I do not understand your argument.

The gospel is Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8.

Still faith without love is a dead faith.

You do not understand what love is?

God is love which means the Holy Spirit is love.

Love is THE FRUIT of the Holy Spirit.

No love means the Holy Spirit is not present and that means no salvation.

• Faith saves us—by grace, not works.
• Love is the fruit of true faith—because the Holy Spirit fills us.
• The command to love is not a ladder to salvation, but the evidence of salvation.
• A tree that is truly in Christ must bear the fruit of love—because Christ is love.

But does outward expressions of love confirm salvation?

If not then about love confirms salvation?

 

[Lamar]

I feel like we are on different wavelengths.

I will just clearly state that "saved is save" not quasi saved,
not only if you love saved,
not only if you obey saved

... it an irrevocable Gift.

There is nothing we can do to earn it and by the same measure nothing we can do to lose it.

End of Story.
This is the starting point of understanding all scripture.

Tell that to the unforgiving servant who lost the forgiveness of his unpayable debt.

A debt forgiveness that was granted to him by the grace of the master.

A forgiveness that the servant most certainly did not deserve.