Ham saw his father naked, why Noah cursed Canaan (Son of Ham) instead of Ham?

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MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#41
As the story as told in Genesis goes, Ham sees his drunk dad, naked in his tent--- And that's all we know. It really is. The rest is complete speculation, including the idea from Leviticus, that "seeing your father's nakedness' is having relations with his wife. Speculation and inference.

Scripture is fully capable of saying exactly what it means, as it does so clearly in Leviticus 18, where it implicitly states>>>

“‘No man is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations with her. I am the LORD. You must not expose your father’s nakedness by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; you must not have sexual relations with her. You must not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; she is your father’s nakedness. You must not have sexual relations with your sister, whether she is your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she is born in the same household or born outside it; you must not have sexual relations with either of them. You must not expose the nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter by having sexual relations with them, because they are your own nakedness.

It's not like the Bible has to use code language to avoid calling sex-- sex. That's not what "exposing your father's nakedness" means. It's one of the ways how it occurs. It simply means to shame him. One's nakedness being exposed is akin to one being humiliated. To be shamed, left em-bare-assed, made powerless, made fun of, mocked, rendered helpless, vulnerable, exposed, etc. And in this case it means to have your garments stolen from you.

Not just any garments-- very special one of a kind, original garments-- handed down by generations-- not only your clothes, but your birthright, your position of leadership, --your mantle of power. And that is what Ham stole from his father-- leaving him naked. If Ham had done what so many want to accuse him of, I suspect that Noah would have slain him rather than banishing/cursing his son Canaan, but that part of the story is yet to come.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#42
In Jasher 7, we get the deets.....

The garments in question, are the very garments of skin that Adam and Eve covered themselves with "to cover their shame" because they were.... wait for it.... ashamed of their nakedness. (I hope this is starting to make sense).

And Cush the son of Ham, the son of Noah, took a wife in those days in his old age, and she bare a son, and they called his name Nimrod, saying, At that time the sons of men again began to rebel and transgress against God, and the child grew up, and his father loved him exceedingly, for he was the son of his old age.

And the garments of skin which God made for Adam and his wife, when they went out of the garden, were given to Cush.

For after the death of Adam and his wife, the garments were given to Enoch, the son of Jared, and when Enoch was taken up to God, he gave them to Methuselah, his son.

And at the death of Methuselah, Noah took them and brought them to the ark, and they were with him until he went out of the ark.

And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers.

And when Ham begat his first born Cush, he gave him the garments in secret, and they were with Cush many days.

And Cush also concealed them from his sons and brothers, and when Cush had begotten Nimrod, he gave him those garments through his love for him, and Nimrod grew up, and when he was twenty years old he put on those garments.
 

Daisy2

Active member
Jan 31, 2025
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#44
No he doesn't. And it was Noah who cursed Canaan not God. Being a servant is not a curse in God's eyes.

The Bible say in times of distress God will speak through us when we can't some people believe the holy people in the Bible all spoke words of God. They do after all call the Bible the word of God. Also it say 1 Samuel 3:19 James 5:17 Yes that's true. Even Jesus are Lord said
" I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). the first will be last, and the last will be first" Matthew 20:16.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
698
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#45
GENESIS 9:20-25
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
It could be that "his younger son" is a reference to Canaan; and we're not told exactly what Canaan did to Noah. Sometimes "son" can be a further-removed descendant; such as Jesus, the son of David.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#46
we're not told exactly what Canaan did to Noah.
There is no mention of anything that Canaan did to Noah. The punishment was for the crime of his father, so it's not even a relevant question of 'what Canaan did to Noah.'

The answer is absolutely nothing.

So why was Canaan singled out? That's the real question.

And the answer to that question might be rather simple. No one knew who took Noah's garments.... which I've mentioned as being much more than a favorite outfit, or coat.... it was his inheritance, the source of his position and prominence and power. The simple answer is that Canaan got blamed for the disappearance of the garments.

If you read on in Jasher, it says>>>

Ham was the one who stole the garments and he gave them in secret to his oldest--firstborn son Cush.

Cush goes on later to given them to his youngest/favorite son-- Nimrod (prominently mentioned in Scripture) who goes on to become a mighty warrior and king on the earth, building both the great city of Ninevah, and the Tower of Babel. And when Nimrod started wearing them he rose to power.

These particular garments were considered to be special-- like a King's robe, and a prophet's mantel--- they were an important symbol historically and spiritually-- uniquely so.

And Cush also concealed them from his sons and brothers, and when Cush had begotten Nimrod, he gave him those garments through his love for him, and Nimrod grew up, and when he was twenty years old he put on those garments.

And Nimrod became strong when he put on the garments, and God gave him might and strength, and he was a mighty hunter in the earth, yea, he was a mighty hunter in the field, and he hunted the animals and he built altars, and he offered upon them the animals before the Lord.

And Nimrod strengthened himself, and he rose up from amongst his brethren, and he fought the battles of his brethren against all their enemies round about.

And the Lord delivered all the enemies of his brethren in his hands, and God prospered him from time to time in his battles, and he reigned upon earth.


The story goes on to say that Nimrod became top dog.... no one greater. But he became wicked-- more evil than any other since the days of the flood. He worshiped idols and rebelled against God. Yet>>

Nimrod reigned in the earth over all the sons of Noah, and they were all under his power and counsel.

He gathered together all the sons of his father Cush-- and led them into battle against the other sons of Noah-- Japeth and Seth. So we can see that despite Noah's curse on Canaan-- it had little effect. It was Ham's sons that rose to power and prominence, becoming much stronger and the sons of Seth and Japeth ended up in service to the sons of Ham, which included the Canaanites.

Among those in the service of Nimrod, was a guy named Terah (a Sethite)--- who became a favorite among the servants of Nimrod-- and to Terah, a son was born-- who was named Abram (the father is exalted) because of Nimrod's favor of Terah.

It's all quite interesting!
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
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#47
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If Canaan is the Soul of Ham.
I hope God will reveal to us why he cursed the Soul of Ham.

What is the Composition of the Soul?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us take this slowly so we can understand the attributes of the Soul.

Mysterious to man is the SOUL. Like the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, who can elaborate about the mystery of the soul? There are some people who do not even believe that they have it. Perhaps, the presence of the soul is clearly perceived when man compares himself with the most intelligent animals. The dolphin, some sharks, chimpanzees, and dogs are considered the most intelligent animals. But still, no sensible comparison can be made with the intelligence of man.

Here, intellect and instinct separate the two creatures. The former is exclusive to man. No man, therefore, can deny this distinct characteristic that separates him from the most intelligent animals. In addition, he has his feeling or emotion that is far beyond the range of instinct of the most clever animals. We find this exclusive domain of man at his creation:

GENESIS 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The SOUL is often referred to as the spirit of man. Can the spirit of man compare with the simple instinct of the animal? Are the intelligence and feeling, the attributes of the SOUL, ever found in animals? It is the SOUL that distinguishes man from the animals.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
314
158
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#48
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us take this slowly so we can understand the attributes of the Soul.

Mysterious to man is the SOUL. Like the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, who can elaborate about the mystery of the soul? There are some people who do not even believe that they have it. Perhaps, the presence of the soul is clearly perceived when man compares himself with the most intelligent animals. The dolphin, some sharks, chimpanzees, and dogs are considered the most intelligent animals. But still, no sensible comparison can be made with the intelligence of man.

Here, intellect and instinct separate the two creatures. The former is exclusive to man. No man, therefore, can deny this distinct characteristic that separates him from the most intelligent animals. In addition, he has his feeling or emotion that is far beyond the range of instinct of the most clever animals. We find this exclusive domain of man at his creation:

GENESIS 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The SOUL is often referred to as the spirit of man. Can the spirit of man compare with the simple instinct of the animal? Are the intelligence and feeling, the attributes of the SOUL, ever found in animals? It is the SOUL that distinguishes man from the animals.
Might be an interesting subject for a separate thread, but it's off topic here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^


If Canaan is the Soul of Ham.
I hope God will reveal to us why he cursed the Soul of Ham.
I don't know of any scripture that supports the idea that God cursed Ham, much less 'the soul of Ham.'

In short-- there's no such thing as the curse of Ham. The closest you will find is, don't eat pork.
 

stilllearning

Well-known member
Oct 4, 2021
645
322
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#49
The nephilim were produced by demons getting inside idolator women and messing with their and their foetus' gene code. Once the genes are in the extant gene pool, even recessive "giantism" genes can activate and produce giants later on. Maybe Noah's or Noah's wife's ancestry contained persons who had recessive mutated giantism genes, and these expressed themselves in later generations. As the percentage of the population without these recessive genes increased fewer giants were produced.
I would almost be curious if this incident between Ham and Noah isn't a catalyst. As I believe it is predominantly offspring of Canaan that are mentioned containing giants when they come into the land. We have Goliath and his brother's who are Philistines but again Philistim was of the Ham line. As well as Nimrod was also a descendent of his.

Genesis 10:6-14
6And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
7And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.
8And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.
13And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim,
14And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.
 

stilllearning

Well-known member
Oct 4, 2021
645
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#50
Magenta, if that really happened wouldn't have the Bible just said so?
I have wondered the same because just chapters later you have a incest incident happen between Lot and his daughters and the bible just plainly spells it out.
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
203
39
28
#51
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us take this slowly so we can understand the attributes of the Soul.

Mysterious to man is the SOUL. Like the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, who can elaborate about the mystery of the soul? There are some people who do not even believe that they have it. Perhaps, the presence of the soul is clearly perceived when man compares himself with the most intelligent animals. The dolphin, some sharks, chimpanzees, and dogs are considered the most intelligent animals. But still, no sensible comparison can be made with the intelligence of man.

Here, intellect and instinct separate the two creatures. The former is exclusive to man. No man, therefore, can deny this distinct characteristic that separates him from the most intelligent animals. In addition, he has his feeling or emotion that is far beyond the range of instinct of the most clever animals. We find this exclusive domain of man at his creation:

GENESIS 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The SOUL is often referred to as the spirit of man. Can the spirit of man compare with the simple instinct of the animal? Are the intelligence and feeling, the attributes of the SOUL, ever found in animals? It is the SOUL that distinguishes man from the animals.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If in God's Revelation, Canaan (Son of Ham) is referring to the Soul of Ham (Deut 13:6).
Then the Attributes of The Soul is Intelligence and Feeling.
Therefore: God The Father Cursed Ham because Ham is using is Intelligence & Feeling when it comes to God and His Words.
Since The Lord God Never Change on this.
MALACHI 3:6
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

And even in our times today. Whoever is using Own Intelligence and Feeling to understand the Word of God, can also be cursed by God.
PROVERBS 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
JEREMIAH 17:5

5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.


So that we could understand what God's means, I'm sure The Lord God will give us an example by Demonstration on these.
 
Mar 10, 2025
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#52
The word "saw his nakedness," actually can be "enjoy" according to Strong's. It indicates that Ham was exhibiting sexual desire for his Father.. yeah, its that bad.
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
203
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28
#53
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If in God's Revelation, Canaan (Son of Ham) is referring to the Soul of Ham (Deut 13:6).
Then the Attributes of The Soul is Intelligence and Feeling.
Therefore: God The Father Cursed Ham because Ham is using is Intelligence & Feeling when it comes to God and His Words.
Since The Lord God Never Change on this.
MALACHI 3:6
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

And even in our times today. Whoever is using Own Intelligence and Feeling to understand the Word of God, can also be cursed by God.
PROVERBS 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
JEREMIAH 17:5

5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.


So that we could understand what God's means, I'm sure The Lord God will give us an example by Demonstration on these.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is one of the Examples by Our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is The Truth but If we use our FEELING we'll be hurt. If we use our feeling we will not accept this truth.
According to Our Lord Jesus, our Flesh or our Body have no benefits to the Word of God.
JOHN 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
314
158
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#54
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is one of the Examples by Our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is The Truth but If we use our FEELING we'll be hurt. If we use our feeling we will not accept this truth.
According to Our Lord Jesus, our Flesh or our Body have no benefits to the Word of God.
JOHN 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I have to ask..... Do you know what this thread is about?
 
Jul 31, 2013
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#55
The nephilim were produced by demons getting inside idolator women and messing with their and their foetus' gene code. Once the genes are in the extant gene pool, even recessive "giantism" genes can activate and produce giants later on. Maybe Noah's or Noah's wife's ancestry contained persons who had recessive mutated giantism genes, and these expressed themselves in later generations. As the percentage of the population without these recessive genes increased fewer giants were produced.
Noah is explicitly called not just righteous but also "untainted" in Genesis 6:9

why?
 
Jul 31, 2013
38,620
13,841
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#56
The nephilim were produced by demons getting inside idolator women and messing with their and their foetus' gene code. Once the genes are in the extant gene pool, even recessive "giantism" genes can activate and produce giants later on. Maybe Noah's or Noah's wife's ancestry contained persons who had recessive mutated giantism genes, and these expressed themselves in later generations. As the percentage of the population without these recessive genes increased fewer giants were produced.
my guess would be altered genes in one of his sons wives. can we guess which one..

my understanding is that people were doing something in those days that they tried to replicate in Sodom and in Gibeah, and perhaps beginning to pursue in Jericho, and will again attempt in the last days - in fact we are probably already working towards.

something God distinguishes as great evil, and destroys entire populations for.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,612
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#57
The reason I see, is that God had already blessed Ham in Gen. 9:1. And Noah was not going to go contrary to God.

Also, note that Noah does not give Ham the patriarchal blessing in Gen. 9:26-27.
The reason I see, is that God had already blessed Ham in Gen. 9:1. And Noah was not going to go contrary to God.



Also, note that Noah does not give Ham the patriarchal blessing in Gen. 9:26-27.
Another factor might be Ham's intent on shaming Noah before his other two brothers. It could have been a power play by Ham to undermine Noah's fitness to rule over the family. Noah had been preaching against the wickedness of mankind while building the ark, and had likely been keeping a tight rein on his sons' behaviour too, to avoid any claims of hypocrisy from the people to whom Noah was preaching.

Then Noah gets drunk and falls asleep naked. Ham may have intended to use Noah's drunkenness as a way to throw off the behavioural restraints Noah had been enforcing on his sons, and in doing so, Ham could have been attempting to steal Noah's mantle as leader. The physical scene was emblematic to Ham of Noah losing His mantle.

Ham told the brothers to look and told them what they would see, if they looked inside the tent. This may be a similar power play to satan's on Adam and Eve. If satan could get Adam and Eve to obey him, they would be placing themselves under him. "Whatsoever you obey, to that you are a servant". But the two brothers refused to consider their father as unmantled, placing his mantle over him as they walk backwards, so they would not see him without his mantle of authority.

It may have been Noah's remedy for Ham's dishonourable attempt to usurp leadership over his two brother's tribes, and make them his servants, that he designated Ham's tribe perpetual servants of the other two brothers' tribes.

We see echoes of this concept of the mantle in other places. David fighting off temptations to overthrow Saul and assume his mantle prematurely. David's repentance at cutting off a piece of Saul's mantle in the cave. Samuel tearing away leadership of 10 tribes from Saul for dishonouring Samuel's mantle and tearing it.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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#58
Then Noah gets drunk and falls asleep naked. Ham may have intended to use Noah's drunkenness as a way to throw off the behavioural restraints Noah had been enforcing on his sons, and in doing so, Ham could have been attempting to steal Noah's mantle as leader. The physical scene was emblematic to Ham of Noah losing His mantle.
premeditation seems likely.

Noah planted a vineyard and made wine - he didn't just stop at a corner store on his way back from the fields one day. this is a visible, years long process, that his family would have watched.

there is implicit in this too, that Noah knew how to make wine - to plant and tend the vineyard. this too, his son's would have known of him - a craft he would have practiced before the flood.

so the picture here perhaps is that for a few years, Noah had been planting, tending. finally he has a harvest of grapes, and he begins to make wine. months or a year later, it is ready, and Noah predictably drinks it, the fruit of his long labor.

- Ham has seen all of this and had a great deal of time to think and plot and prepare.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#59
premeditation seems likely.

Noah planted a vineyard and made wine - he didn't just stop at a corner store on his way back from the fields one day. this is a visible, years long process, that his family would have watched.

there is implicit in this too, that Noah knew how to make wine - to plant and tend the vineyard. this too, his son's would have known of him - a craft he would have practiced before the flood.

so the picture here perhaps is that for a few years, Noah had been planting, tending. finally he has a harvest of grapes, and he begins to make wine. months or a year later, it is ready, and Noah predictably drinks it, the fruit of his long labor.

- Ham has seen all of this and had a great deal of time to think and plot and prepare.
Faster too. If it took him 120 years to build the ark, it probably would have taken him 40 years to build the store.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#60
my guess would be altered genes in one of his sons wives. can we guess which one...
Of course it was genetic, otherwise we would have never heard about giants again after the flood-- but they reappear.

And we can see plainly that the giants come from the genetic line of Ham, his son Cush, his son Nimrod, and so on. This is all recorded in the book of the upright, for Noah was among those blameless (upright) people the book of Jasher was written about.