The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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Does believeing in Jesus or on Jesus save you?
I know many who believe Jesus was a real person but dont believe he died and rose again.
I have often heard Christians use the name, "God", but rarely use the name, "Jesus".

Matthew 10:32
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Folk can have a mental acknowledgment of Jesus and they can believe on or in Jesus.

But a true Christian will bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

They will confess the name of Jesus often.

A subtle difference that most would miss.

The confession and the fruit of the Holy Spirit are together and cannot be separated.

The gospel is foolishness, stupidity, and most will not confess openly.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Romans 10:9-10.

That is an isolated verse which is true but does not represent the entire instruction in the N.T.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
I know quite a few people who are kind, gentle, loving. They help people, come alongside them, help financially and so on and seek no credit. They do it out of love and compassion. What seperated them from believers?

They
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I know quite a few people who are kind, gentle, loving. They help people, come alongside them, help financially and so on and seek no credit. They do it out of love and compassion. What seperated them from believers?

They

So do I, BillG, but they lack that agape love which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

You can identify a true Christian by the confession of the name of Jesus and that agape love.

The critical fruit of the Holy Spirit is divine love (agape love) channelled through us.

Another very important point which most will dismiss.

1 Corinthians 2:5
So that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus.

Christianity is the ministries and the gifts of the Holy Spirit backed up by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There is a massive difference between someone who is kind and someone who has the Holy Spirit.

A good person usually becomes cynical later in life.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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In the parable of the unforgiving servant, since the wicked servant did not have the means to repay his debt, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. (vs. 25) That is not how it works with the Lord in regard to our sin debt. Jesus doesn't order that our wife and children be sold in order to pay off the sin debt.

The wicked servant fell on his knees before his master, asking him to be patient with him and he will pay back everything. (vs. 29) The wicked servant did not ask his master to forgive his debt. That is not how it works with the Lord. He is not going to forgive our sin debt because we ask Him to be patient with us and we will pay it back, no matter how much we beg (vs. 32) with a wicked heart that is unwilling to forgive in such small matters. (vss. 28-30) The debt is too enormous to pay back!

The parable does demonstrate the mercy of the Lord who is willing to forgive, but ultimately, wicked, unforgiving hearts (which do not represent those who are born of God) can expect no forgiveness. Even though the master in the parable cancelled the debt of his wicked servant (just as our sin debt was paid in full and cancelled at the cross) he did not infallibly know his heart was wicked, until his wicked servant refused to forgive his fellow servant in such a small matter and even had him thrown into prison until he paid back the small debt.

So, even though his debt was cancelled, ultimately, he was not forgiven. The Lord Jesus Christ infallibly knows our hearts and ultimate forgiveness of sin is based on grace through faith and not on pleading for more time to pay back a debt that is too enormous to pay back with a wicked, unforgiving heart.
“In the parable of the unforgiving servant, since the wicked servant did not have the means to repay his debt, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made”

this represents every sinner who cannot atone for thier own sins and now exist beneath this heavy wieght.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That is not how it works with the Lord in regard to our sin debt. Jesus doesn't order that our wife and children be sold in order to pay off the sin debt.”

it’s a parable not a literal account it’s meant to teach believers how it does work in the kingdom of God. With our Heavenly Father Jesus literally closes the teaching with this statement which is the lesson meant to be learned

“So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:35‬ ‭

It’s literally Gods only begotten son teaching mankind how God truly is and will be towards believers in him. The lesson there is part of Jesus consistant doctrine

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s how God is regarding forgivness of believers sins. Like this

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is Jesus explaining this to those who believed in him. That orable doesn’t have anything to do with anyone being sold it’s about God has forgiven us all our trespasses and imperfections and so we now are called to go out and treat others like he has treated us forgiving them . And if we don’t we should take his word seriously when he warns us what will happen if we don’t change and find mercy for others .

How we treat others who do wrong to us or who we are doing wrong and then we judge . This really matters no Jesus it’s why he taught it so often in his doctrine he died for me …..but he also died for the person who offended me the other day . I need to respect that and not hold things against others

We should believe this

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s what that parable is about look how it concludes and he states the lesson at the end “ this is how my father is going to treat all of you also u less you forgive others “

Jesus knows brother he’s even more sure than the mail he o owe how god will treat us regarding forgivness he died so we could be forgiven and also for the person who wronged me …. Can be forgiven

Jesus is the way to learn about the true God
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Firstly I don't know or can see you were editing. Chill out.
Seconl I cannot see your answer now.
It would be better/less confusing for a post not to viewable for the five minutes that it may be edited.

Not sure why you could not see the edited answer, but here it is again:

Believing Jesus is Messiah and Lord saves you per Acts 16:30-31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col 2:6.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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:( I'd think it would be quite the problem given the only one that knows for a fact is God.
We certainly feel him and his spirit guiding us. We know what it means to be in that union with the divine.

All others will judge as they wish. That's not on us but them.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

It seems to me that assurance or security or whatever we want to call it may be the wrong discussion. In fact, it may be downstream from the important discussion and take care of itself once the upstream question is resolved. And even then, since things like the Fear of God are discussed as part of the Christian Life well into that Life, I'm not sure assurance is supposed to be everything we tend to fill it with.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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It seems to me that assurance or security or whatever we want to call it may be the wrong discussion. In fact, it may be downstream from the important discussion and take care of itself once the upstream question is resolved. And even then, since things like the Fear of God are discussed as part of the Christian Life well into that Life, I'm not sure assurance is supposed to be everything we tend to fill it with.
What do you consider the upstream question,if you will.
Thank you for your attention.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.
We know we are of God because we love the children of God with God's kind of love. Do you member your attitude to other Christians when you first believed in Christ? And before you were taught which doctrine were good and which were bad according to your denomination, and which Christians were dangerous to be around? Can we get back to and abide in that first love? This is how we are to assure our hearts: not by our affirming a particular set of theological propositions. If we do not see God's love reaching out to bless others, even our anowed enemies, we should wonder whether we are in the faith. Love is the distinctive of the follower of Jesus. If I don't have it, I am not following Him.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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What is Genuine Faith?
One of my favorite verses 1 Corinthians 13:13, "And these three remain (abide), faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love."
The best line in the movie, One Night with the King, is given to Esther in answer to the king's question, " if it can be bought, then it is not love," and this answer wins her the king's favor. However, it appears that, later, she falls out of his favor and, subsequently, she finds herself in a situation where she has to put everything she has, even her life, at the mercy of it.

And seeing that love is declared 'the greatest of these' in scripture, I looked within the Strong's definition and, under the heading, Cultural and Historical Background, I read, "...In the biblical context, however, greatness is frequently realigned with God's values..." and stopped reading there to consider if love, indeed, is God's greatest value. The full statement continues with, "...where humility and servanthood are exalted." But, of course, humility and servanthood would not actually be humility and servanthood if love were absent from it.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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What is Genuine Faith?
Genuine faith is faith that produces fruit commensurate with the profession of faith. And the fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. The primary fruit that evidences genuine faith is a sincere love for God and for others. And each of us knows whether we have a sincere love for God and others.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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@Mem @GWH @PaulThomson

What's easy to see here is that each of you see Genuine Faith as including or resulting in many Biblical things. I agree.

I tend to like to simplify as much as I can where I can in order to build upon a foundation piece by piece. When we look at the concept of what Genuine Faith is - not what it results in - I see a few things normally taking place among various groups:
  • "Faith" has lexical definitions, but such are not fully descriptive of what is included in the word Biblically.
  • Heb11:1-2 is taken as a definition which IMO it is not one, rather it is part of a description of Genuine Faith. There are some very interesting words and concepts used there.
  • Some have worked very hard to make Faith completely passive and in doing so have IMO made it so simplistic as to virtually strip it of any meaningful definition and negate the many descriptives I see applied to it in the Text. Interestingly these are the one of the fiercest proponents against works-salvation who do not want to see any even remotely potential action on the part of men to believe.
  • And so on.
It's not my desire to get away from the Security outline and into Genuine Faith, so I'm not going to get too detailed, but here are a very few examples recently discussed here and there of Biblical words I see attached to Genuine Faith. Apart from them I don't think we're dealing with Genuine Faith:
  • Obedient
  • Abiding
  • Enduring
The Greek noun "pistis" is used about 244 times in the NC. The verb "pisteuō" is used about 246 times. The adjective "pistos" (faithful) about 67 times. I have pages upon pages of studies of research looking at every occurrence. I've mentioned it to Paul Thomson before, but looking at these words coupled with prepositions there is quite a picture depicted in Scripture of how things flow between us and God through "The Faith" originated and completed by Jesus Christ.

Bottom line, Faith is an obviously huge topic of importance for us. IMO many adjectives and descriptive concepts are attached to it. Making it simplistic is just wrong.

On the Security outline I posted, one of the things I put in it for purpose is God's giving/granting men to Christ. Is He assessing the Faith of the one being granted? Is there such a thing as belief in the Scripture that is not Genuine Faith and we're being too narrow-minded and seeing every instance of Faith or Belief and not realizing it may not be Genuine Faith because we're not defining Genuine Faith?