The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Jul 3, 2015
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Christians love and are loved by the light. :)
And the natural man hates the Light. Still, we have many here who deny such verses in favor of their man-made traditions.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-14a ~ Those who are perishing refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness. But we always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth, to which He called you through our gospel.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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And the natural man hates the Light. Still, we have many here who deny such verses in favor of their man-made traditions.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-14a ~ Those who are perishing refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness. But we always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth, to which He called you through our gospel.
Likely, it has always been that way.
More proof the flesh is in love with itself. :(
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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That's not what hairesis actually means. It means the act of selecting and taking for oneself others, away from their church into a faction that follows you or someone of whom you are a fan. From haireO to choose or take for oneself.

One can be quite orthodox and still be a heretic (biblically), if one seeks to set oneself up as a to-be-preferred teacher, and tries to peel off Christians from some other orthodox group to follow your podcasts or sit under your pulpit by slander or innuendo aginst other pastor/teachers. "I prefer Peter." "I prefer Apollos." I prefer Paul." "I prefer Thieme." These are carnal heretical attitudes, if Paul, Apollos and Peter and Thieme are all preaching and leading others to Christ.
Here is an example of a heretical organization from history.

This organization was regarded as heretical by orthodox (traditional) Christianity in the 16th Century.

Protestantism (16th Century)

Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe
in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when
forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only).

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies
the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself.

This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you
must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”
A significant
feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium
has any infallible authority to interpret Scripture. This doctrine of private judgment has resulted in thousands
of different Christian denominations and quasi-Christian splinter groups throughout history.

By the way, it is not sola fide (by faith alone) anyway; it's by grace through faith.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,932
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Scripture actually says we were made alive in Christ while we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins. And it further states that salvation is by the will and mercy and desire of God and not the will or desire or effort of man. You constantly have the natural man, with an incurably wicked heart, the guy who is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, choosing to believe that which is foolishnesss to him, which he can neither comprehend nor receive. You like to pretend that the bad tree can bring forth good fruit even though Jesus said that was not possible. What happens upon belief is that we are sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. Scripture says that...
Does a Calvinist believe the elect are born with the Holy Spirit?
 
Jul 3, 2015
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This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you
must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”
A significant
feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium
has any infallible authority to interpret Scripture. This doctrine of private judgment has resulted in thousands
of different Christian denominations and quasi-Christian splinter groups throughout history.
People misapply this verse frequently... Interesting that you left off the part that tells what the verse is really about:
how the prophecy is received by the actual prophet, which is not a private interpretation, but given by the Holy Spirit.


We have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp
shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand
that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought
forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,932
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Very unfortunate you are an enemy of Christians here.
That would be very unfortunate if that is the case.

I have always been of the opinion that the true enemy has always been. The folk that hold to a form
of Christianity, to a form of Godliness, but openly deny it's power.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,932
1,104
113
People misapply this verse frequently... Interesting that you left off the part that tells what the verse is really about:
how the prophecy is received by the actual prophet, which is not a private interpretation, but given by the Holy Spirit.


We have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp
shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand
that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought
forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
You may have missed the point that there is only one correct reading of the N.T.

Yet, there are a multitude of different interpretations.

The N.T. is such a small text and many letters are simple letters.

How is it possible to have so many church variations?

Even Calvinism has multiple denominations.

How do you read the following verse?

2 Timothy 3:5
Holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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That would be very unfortunate if that is the case.

I have always been of the opinion that the true enemy has always been. The folk that hold to a form
of Christianity, to a form of Godliness, but openly deny it's power.
Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.


Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
It's simply what the scripture states that matters.

Here you go an exercise for you to do while you are judging me.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

How do you read the verse above?
 
Apr 24, 2025
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It's simply what the scripture states that matters.

Here you go an exercise for you to do while you are judging me.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

How do you read the verse above?
Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

You are not an apostle.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

You are not an apostle.
I never said I was.

I am scripture only.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

How do you read the verse above?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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People misapply this verse frequently... Interesting that you left off the part that tells what the verse is really about:
how the prophecy is received by the actual prophet, which is not a private interpretation, but given by the Holy Spirit.


We have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp
shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand
that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought
forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
A solid reply.

So how do you interpret the following verse?

1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Will it be sola scripture or tradition?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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USA-TX
Doctrine of perseverance is aaa..... shall I say it, a "Calvinist" construct.

Scripture states "born from above" happens once, not drawn out over years, but at the moment a person exercises faith and receives the gift of salvation.

This means the declaration of the status "Justified" is not contingent upon whether one preserves or how well one perseveres, although scripture tells why a person should and exhorts us to do so.
Perseverance is a teaching in GW that TULIPists interpret one way and MFWists another way.

Examples of the TULIP view are found in Mag's post #1,974:

1. Scripture actually says we were made alive in Christ while we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins.

TULIP - "Dead" means totally depraved volition and "made alive" means unconditional and irresistible determination.

MFW - "Dead" means condemned unless divine seeking grace is exercised to satisfy God's condition of repenting.

2. And it further states that salvation is by the will and mercy and desire of God and not the will or desire or effort of man.

TULIP - It does not state that God's desire is for all souls to be saved or that man must seek God's salvation.

MFW - It also states that God desires for everyone to be saved if they will repent and seek Him.

3. TULIP - You constantly have the natural man, with an incurably wicked heart, the guy who is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, choosing to believe that which is foolishness to him, which he can neither comprehend nor receive. You like to pretend that the bad tree can bring forth good fruit even though Jesus said that was not possible.

MFW - Natural man is enabled by the God revealed via nature and moral conscience to repent and seek salvation/escape Satan, love truth, and believe what he foolishly had rejected, whereupon Christ enters the heart as He promised and produces good fruit. This happening is also called being born again from above and sealed with the HS.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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USA-TX
That wealth of erroneous information should be dismantled. It's a wonder he has
gotten away with advertising his site for so long, since it is against the rules.
Since you mentioned a site, maybe you mean me, although I have stated many times that it is OUR site,
and I even invited you to submit something for me to add to it.

Re "erroneous information": IOW, you disagree with something unspecified that I have said,
even though I have asked many times for you to quote me so that I can either amend or defend.
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,820
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USA-TX
Here is an example of a heretical organization from history.

This organization was regarded as heretical by orthodox (traditional) Christianity in the 16th Century.

Protestantism (16th Century)

Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe
in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when
forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only).

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies
the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself.

This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you
must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”
A significant
feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium
has any infallible authority to interpret Scripture. This doctrine of private judgment has resulted in thousands
of different Christian denominations and quasi-Christian splinter groups throughout history.

By the way, it is not sola fide (by faith alone) anyway; it's by grace through faith.
The first magisterium was the Sanhedrin that condemned Christians as heretical,
but we know what Peter said: "We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,625
627
113
Here is an example of a heretical organization from history.

This organization was regarded as heretical by orthodox (traditional) Christianity in the 16th Century.

Protestantism (16th Century)

Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe
in the teachings of sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when
forming our theology) and sola fide (“by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only).

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies
the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself.

This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you
must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”
A significant
feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium
has any infallible authority to interpret Scripture. This doctrine of private judgment has resulted in thousands
of different Christian denominations and quasi-Christian splinter groups throughout history.

By the way, it is not sola fide (by faith alone) anyway; it's by grace through faith.
I find it problematic when Bible dictionaries take a word use in the first century with a particular range of meanings, and give it a special novel meaning that goes beyond the common sense of it, when it appears in the Bible. Hairesis was not identifying false doctrine, but in common use, described schools of thought, one could choose between, even within what might be considered a generally orthodox stream. To make hairesis a word that specifies false doctrines when used in the Bible is to employ a special pleading fallacy, There is no need to overlay the idea of "false doctrine" onto hairesis in the Bible. The texts make perfect sense when it simply encompasses its common usual meaning of one school among several that students may choose join. Heresies or schools or parties become problematic when they become divisive and exclude other schools from membership in the general stream of Christianity unless they are willing to swir=tch their allegiance to your school. This is what Diotrephes was guilty of doing.

3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, receives us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither does he himself receive the brethren, and forbids them that would, and casts them out of the church.

Paul addresses the same heretical behaviour to the Corinthians.

1 Cor. 3: 3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


It is actually heresy to be denouncing and breaking fellowship with other Christians who love and trust Jesus, when the differences are merely doctrinal. That is the divisive "party spirit" rebuked in scripture. It is fine to disagree over the meaning of scripture and to contrast the pros and cons of the different views. But we need to remember that we will be judged for our works, and if we are building with heretick-hunting hay, straw and stubble on the foundation of Christ, rather than works of self-sacrificial and Jesus honouring, church unifying love, our sectarian shrine will become ashes.