Understanding God’s election

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BillyBob

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First of all, the files I put together over the last 30 years or so are basically topical files that contain miscellaneous notes amassed over those years with scripture references and/or quotes.

Now...whether or not God saves "all" children, I cannot give a definitive answer except to say that the biblical evidence suggests that God does. For example, I see Jesus using a double entendre in Mat 18:14 (i.e. "little ones or little children literally and figuratively that would include all believers). When Jesus said his Father "is not willing that ANY of these little ones should perish", it's difficult to not logically infer that Jesus meant that literally, especially since Deut 1:39 illustrates this truth.

What's so important to grasp about the Deut passage is the Land. The Land is both a type of kingdom of God/Heaven and even more importantly a type of Christ himself. So...when God decreed judgment on virtually the entire generation He redeemed from Egypt, he at the same time decreed "salvation" for all the youngsters whom that sinful generation had begat either in Egypt or in the wilderness. Those youngsters, as they grew older, eventually entered the Kingdom when they entered the Land. They found their "rest" in the Land, and in so doing found their ultimate rest in the Lord.

Also, king David seem quite assured, that after God took his son away from him, that he would be reunited with him in death (2Sam 12:22-23).

Anyway...the "any" in Mat 18:14 and "all" the underage in Deut 1:39 is pretty solid evidence. And there's no reason to understand the text as saying that God allowed only a certain number of youngsters to enter, e.g. - some, few, many, most. There's nothing in the text to suggest a limited number.

Another important takeaway from both Mat 18 and Deut 1 is God's will (or decree) is front and center in both passages. The Deut text says, "they WILL take possession of it". No, "ands", ifs", buts" or 'ors"

Another big takeaway is that God's decree in Deut is unilateral! Those youngsters who didn't know good from evil had nothing to say about the matter! The "pots" destiny (who became God's children OF PROMISE!) was determined solely by the Potter. In fact, Deut 1:39 reminds me of Rom 9:11 that deals with two children before they were born -- and did anything good or bad. God dealt with the Exodus children in a very similar way -- i.e. BEFORE any of them had any real knowledge of good and evil.

And finally, we should not miss that God's will (decree) pertaining to these Exodus children was efficacious. God made good on his promise; for he was with the children of Israel every step of the way during their sojourn into the Land.

A lot more could be said since this text and all its historical fulfillment are bursting at the soteriological seams with precious truths -- predestination, election, preservation of the saints, possession of the Land (Christ), etc., but it's getting late.

I look forward to your critique.
Thank you for the work that you did in gathering this information. It is a compelling story, and one that I will certainly save and study more carefully.
The question of salvation for children will probably continue right up to the time of Christ's return. I will admit that we all see through glass dimly, especially on this issue. It is natural for man to look at a young child and see nothing but innocence, but we do not see as God sees.
Although I will not address each reference individually, many of your examples if not all, are based on the children of His chosen people. Take Deut 1:39 for example. God is punishing His people for loosing faith. However, He did not include the children. They would inherit the land as God promised, maintaining a remnant of God's people.
You also had a reference to Rom 9:11. Let's expand this a bit to be Rom 9:10-13.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Now ask yourself – If it had been God's plan for Esau to die at the age of 6 weeks, would he have been saved or was he chosen for destruction prior to birth?


It is for reasons like this – that I cannot go along with Age-of-accountability. It is either true all the time, or age is not a factor in God's decision. I prefer to believe that God has always planned to have a people who belong to Him, and He will always preserve a remnant to accomplish this.

The Canons of Dort makes the following statement which I believe to be true:
Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.
Granted this is not the word of God, and was included to be a comfort to His people upon losing a child. However, since God will maintain His remnant, it stands to reason that it will be done through His people.
 

lrs68

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Fair enough, but that doesn't change what it means to be under the law and under grace.
As it doesn't change the fact that Gentiles even today converting to Christ had specific rules set up by the Council that's still in effect. Nothing about the New Testament has changed even the Council rulings.
 

lrs68

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No, not in the "same way" - for those saved and those to be saved, not at all. For them, the law, as you mean it, has/had NO part in their salvation, period.
You are unable to understand that Christ alone is the Savior
You don't read because if you had you would have understood and noticed that I never said we're under the Law as Christians the same way ancient Hebrews were.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You can interpret it as you please.
But from my own experience and others, we found that God is willing and waiting to fulfill His promise but it is conditional.

Not all promises are conditional but when it comes to a new heart, we need to have a heart that is able to be changed. God does not force us to have a recreated heart, He offers it.

Psa 51:9-11
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Why ask if God just does it unconditionally. Why repent, why surrender, ???
You truly don't have any understanding of the New Covenant. The NC is unconditional and unilateral in nature. The NC differs radically from the Old (Jer 31:32). The OC was strictly a conditional, bilateral covenant to which the Jews agreed to keep. But God acts unilaterally in the NC. You will find no conditions stipulated in the NC for God's covenant people to fulfill.

Elect sinners ask, repent and surrender precisely because God has given them a new heart -- in fact, a God-fearing disposition is instilled in that new heart which makes elect sinners extremely sensitive to their sinful condition -- and equally as sensitive to God's holiness and justice and love.

Moreover, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that since man is spiritually dead, this renders him helpless spiritually. God needs to spiritually raise his elect up from the dead before they can repent and believe the gospel. Do the physical dead have any power to change their physical state? Then why would you think that the spiritually dead would have any power to change their spiritual condition, apart from God's effectual power? This is why fallen man's ways are NOT in himself! If God left every man to himself, no one could be saved because man cannot change his vile, sinful, depraved nature anymore than God change his holy, righteous and good nature! See Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Paul states that the law points out sin..
Sin is the transgression of the law.

No law = no sin.

We are all sinners but by grace Christ imputs His perfect righteousness to us..

Do we continue to sin ?
Do we continue to lie?
Do we continue to commit adultery and covet or take God's name in vain ????

Is the grace of Christ an excuse to keep serving the flesh and sinning?
No
If I try to keep the law to save myself , I will fail but God promised to write it in our hearts.

Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To walk after the Spirit means we will obey and keep the law. Not to be saved, but because the Spirit is only and righteous.

Imparted righteousness is the Spirit working in us to become like Christ.

Christ kept the law and was righteous.
To become like Christ is to keep the law like Christ.
Are you aware that in the Reformed Traditions that the vast majority of the Reformed understand and fully embrace the truth that Christians have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (IOW, predestined to be sanctified in Christ) and that we strive to keep the Law of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit because God's power has freed his saints from the power of sin and death?
 

Cameron143

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As it doesn't change the fact that Gentiles even today converting to Christ had specific rules set up by the Council that's still in effect. Nothing about the New Testament has changed even the Council rulings.
The concern of the apostles was not to put the yoke of the law on Gentile believers. You don't seem to share this concern. What you are advocating ignorantly places people under the bondage of the law rather than freeing them to walk in the Spirit.
I appreciate the discussion, but until you recognize this, you will actually be subverting the freedom to be found in Christ thinking you are helping people.
Grace and peace.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You don't read because if you had you would have understood and noticed that I never said we're under the Law as Christians the same way ancient Hebrews were.
Just to be clear, no, not the "same way", not under it at all. Pertaining to salvation, not under the law as you mean law. It is solely and exclusively by Christ through grace. Grace for salvation, and law for salvation, are completely and mutually exclusive of each other, and as such, do not/cannot coexist unto that end in any sense nor form whatsoever.

[Rom 7:4-6 KJV]
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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In which way, then, are Christians under the Law?
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Verse 18 explains that the LAW doesn't pass away until HEAVEN AND EARTH pass. We know that won't happen until our own future. So even though we have Grace the LAW is still not finished.


Verse 19 even explains we should continue to teach the LAW and who teaches the LAW will be considered GREAT in Heaven.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

^

Heaven and earth has not passed away.

But my portion of the discussion is concerning how Grace reflects upon the Law and can be explained in the example of Jesus like we are able to see how His DBR reflects festivals like Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost, and others and like His Return reflects the Harvest Seasons and the Threshing of Wheat and separating Tares and such.
 

lrs68

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The concern of the apostles was not to put the yoke of the law on Gentile believers. You don't seem to share this concern. What you are advocating ignorantly places people under the bondage of the law rather than freeing them to walk in the Spirit.
I appreciate the discussion, but until you recognize this, you will actually be subverting the freedom to be found in Christ thinking you are helping people.
Grace and peace.
Actually I have not placed anyone in the LAW but explained how Jesus showed us what role it plays with the new Covenant.
 

lrs68

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Just to be clear, no, not the "same way", not under it at all. Pertaining to salvation, not under the law as you mean law. It is solely and exclusively by Christ through grace. Grace for salvation, and law for salvation, are completely and mutually exclusive of each other, and as such, do not/cannot coexist unto that end in any sense nor form whatsoever.

[Rom 7:4-6 KJV]
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
The Law will always coexist because it explains who Jesus is.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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The Law will always coexist because it explains who Jesus is.
Jesus Christ is NOT the LAW as you mean law; He came to put Law to death in the role as THE Savior, on the behalf of those He would save. For it to be as you say, would elevate law into an equal of God, which is impossible.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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Jesus Christ is NOT the LAW as you mean law; He came to put Law to death in the role as THE Savior, on the behalf of those He would save. For it to be as you say, would elevate law into an equal of God, which is impossible.
You think the LAW is a works system but fail beyond recognition what purpose it serves past the point of separating the people of God from the rest of humanity. The actual Kosher diet is extremely healthier than the majority of other diets existing. The other general Laws are no different than loving your neighbors as yourself. And the reminder of the laws is to keep God first and most important like the first Commandment Jesus gave in His 2 Commandments that sum up the entire LAW that He instructed us to obey.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Verse 18 explains that the LAW doesn't pass away until HEAVEN AND EARTH pass. We know that won't happen until our own future. So even though we have Grace the LAW is still not finished.


Verse 19 even explains we should continue to teach the LAW and who teaches the LAW will be considered GREAT in Heaven.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

^

Heaven and earth has not passed away.

But my portion of the discussion is concerning how Grace reflects upon the Law and can be explained in the example of Jesus like we are able to see how His DBR reflects festivals like Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost, and others and like His Return reflects the Harvest Seasons and the Threshing of Wheat and separating Tares and such.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, you completely miss the word "fulfil" and its meaning and relevance to those verses.
 

Cameron143

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You think the LAW is a works system but fail beyond recognition what purpose it serves past the point of separating the people of God from the rest of humanity. The actual Kosher diet is extremely healthier than the majority of other diets existing. The other general Laws are no different than loving your neighbors as yourself. And the reminder of the laws is to keep God first and most important like the first Commandment Jesus gave in His 2 Commandments that sum up the entire LAW that He instructed us to obey.
Does not the indwelling Holy Spirit make God's people distinct from all others?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You think the LAW is a works system but fail beyond recognition what purpose it serves past the point of separating the people of God from the rest of humanity. The actual Kosher diet is extremely healthier than the majority of other diets existing. The other general Laws are no different than loving your neighbors as yourself. And the reminder of the laws is to keep God first and most important like the first Commandment Jesus gave in His 2 Commandments that sum up the entire LAW that He instructed us to obey.
None of that brings salvation. Only Christ does as THE Savior; otherwise, salvation would be of our works, not of Christ's alone.
 

lrs68

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As I mentioned in an earlier post, you completely miss the word "fulfil" and its meaning and relevance to those verses.
And as I mentioned the LAW doesn't pass until the Heaven and earth pass and Jesus said the one who continues to teach it according to the New Testament is considered GREAT in Heaven.

I trust the words of Jesus over your understanding and doctrine.
 

rogerg

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And as I mentioned the LAW doesn't pass until the Heaven and earth pass and Jesus said the one who continues to teach it according to the New Testament is considered GREAT in Heaven.

I trust the words of Jesus over your understanding and doctrine.
"fulfil" is one of those words
 

lrs68

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Does not the indwelling Holy Spirit make God's people distinct from all others?
The Spirit of God directs our path but ultimately we choose whether to listen and obey. If we truly did literally listen and obey then the Church would not look like the world as it does in this day and age.