At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?
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Thanks for seeing what I said about "gist". The gist is that God essentially does everything and we do nothing. One poster on this forum took hard issue with me mentioning the word "cooperation" when it comes to our relationship with God. Other than that, I've been dealing with this for decades and was deep in the middle of some intense security advocates who had all kinds of things to say. And, no, I do not recall their names or much of anything about most of them.
1) By grace through believing (faith) in Jesus then you are saved, fact.
Now for the spiritual crunch.
2) You must bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (love) in your Christian life
If the second point 2) is absent in your life then, return to point 1) and ask yourself if point 1) is true.
If your not led by the Holy Spirit then, you are being led by your flesh!
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Point one 1) is not an intellectual proposition.
Point 1) is ultimately the spiritual Christian life.
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.
I have, I have, I have kept the faith!
Now for the spiritual crunch.
2) You must bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (love) in your Christian life
If the second point 2) is absent in your life then, return to point 1) and ask yourself if point 1) is true.
If your not led by the Holy Spirit then, you are being led by your flesh!
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Point one 1) is not an intellectual proposition.
Point 1) is ultimately the spiritual Christian life.
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.
I have, I have, I have kept the faith!
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Most Christians believe there is a cooperation between God and believers. They may not agree on the extent or the contributions of each party, but they believe there is a spiritual bond that was designed to be improved in relationship. The controversy is usually over what level, if any, a non-believer can contribute to a relationship with God.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that statement.
Living In a middle class suburb and you don't read the scripture or pray very often.
Then Christianity could be a long holiday at a wonderful resort.
If not, then obviously your attempting to walk in the Holy Spirit which means everyone. Eventually
has a problem with you. Just like the prophets in the O.T. and the apostles in the N.T.
Living In a middle class suburb and you don't read the scripture or pray very often.
Then Christianity could be a long holiday at a wonderful resort.
If not, then obviously your attempting to walk in the Holy Spirit which means everyone. Eventually
has a problem with you. Just like the prophets in the O.T. and the apostles in the N.T.
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Are you implying that Hebrews 12:14 teaches that if we are not "holy enough" IN ADDITION to having placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) then we will not see God? That would imply works righteousness. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.
Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Those who are justified are also sanctified and will be glorified. (Romans 8:30)
In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.
Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Those who are justified are also sanctified and will be glorified. (Romans 8:30)
In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.
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By grace through believing (faith) in Jesus then you are saved, is fact. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith involves belief and trust. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. If we have faith in Jesus that saves, this means we are trusting in Him alone for salvation. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6) By all-encompassing are you implying we should ADD works to faith which culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS?
I was in a conversation with a Roman Catholic who re-defined faith to include works. Here is his statement below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith includes: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..
Is that what you mean by all-encompassing? Notice how this Roman Catholic re-defined faith to include these works above.
I was in a conversation with a Roman Catholic who re-defined faith to include works. Here is his statement below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith includes: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..
Is that what you mean by all-encompassing? Notice how this Roman Catholic re-defined faith to include these works above.
Yes, I know that's how you see it, what we seem to disagree about is that "you" are grabbing the gift, is you claiming a reason to boast, and this makes salvation not just "of God". If "you" have to grab, then salvation is of God "AND" you. I believe scripture goes to great lengths to communicate to us that this is not the case. Salvation is of God alone and we have NO reason to boast, which you agree we don't. You just ignore the fact "grabbing" actually implies this from a logical and rational standpoint. Here's why I say that, and I don't see how you could possibly disagree, if you don't grab, then you're not saved. Right? This makes salvation dependent on your grabbing. This isn't something you can get around with your argument no matter how soft you try to make it sound.
This said I want to add that I do understand how you see it and I don't feel this difference changes a whole lot. Again, as a reborn in truth Christian I also held this same view, so I feel this is a difference that many believers have that does not need to divide us into camps. I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from and I also feel you understand my position as well. While I do disagree I do not see any reason to keep going back and forth on it until we start being ugly to each other. So thanks for entertaining my questions with respect, and I will read any response you leave, but I most likely will not "counter" it or reply unless you ask me something specific, or really counter me in a way so hard I have to come back to let you know you helped to change my mind.
This said I want to add that I do understand how you see it and I don't feel this difference changes a whole lot. Again, as a reborn in truth Christian I also held this same view, so I feel this is a difference that many believers have that does not need to divide us into camps. I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from and I also feel you understand my position as well. While I do disagree I do not see any reason to keep going back and forth on it until we start being ugly to each other. So thanks for entertaining my questions with respect, and I will read any response you leave, but I most likely will not "counter" it or reply unless you ask me something specific, or really counter me in a way so hard I have to come back to let you know you helped to change my mind.
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I am not implying it, the Bible clearly states it.
James 2:23-25
Easy-to-Read Version
23 This shows the full meaning of the Scriptures that say, “Abraham believed God, and because of this faith he was accepted as one who is right with God.” Abraham was called “God’s friend.” 24 So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone. 25 Another example is Rahab. She was a prostitute, but she was made right with God by something she did. She helped those who were spying for God’s people. She welcomed them into her home and helped them escape by a different road.
Note that I am not shoe horning a definitive into the meaning of the verse, as you commonly do.
If you feel the need to add a definitive into a verse in order to make it fit your theology then I suggest you rethink your theology.
Remember the JW shoe horn "a" into John 1:1 changing the meaning of the verse to fit their theology also.
James 2:23-25
Easy-to-Read Version
23 This shows the full meaning of the Scriptures that say, “Abraham believed God, and because of this faith he was accepted as one who is right with God.” Abraham was called “God’s friend.” 24 So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone. 25 Another example is Rahab. She was a prostitute, but she was made right with God by something she did. She helped those who were spying for God’s people. She welcomed them into her home and helped them escape by a different road.
Note that I am not shoe horning a definitive into the meaning of the verse, as you commonly do.
If you feel the need to add a definitive into a verse in order to make it fit your theology then I suggest you rethink your theology.
Remember the JW shoe horn "a" into John 1:1 changing the meaning of the verse to fit their theology also.
Respectfully stated and appreciated.
Grabbing may not be the best word but I'm still OK based upon your hypothetical adventure at sea. I likely would be grabbing in that situation.
There are many ways to approach this but a simple one that comes to mind is that we "receive" the Gospel and we "receive" Him. These are active verbs. The Text is telling us people actively received the Gospel, received Jesus, received the gift. It's presented and it's received. I have no issue with the concept of actively pursuing instruction and agreeing to receive it, or agreeing to actively receive Him, or His gifts.
This does not remotely mean that all is not His and only He gives it. The entire concept of boasting because I agreed to accept and receive a gift seems extremely forced to me, even to the point of being ludicrous. My reaching out to receive a gift and making the giver somehow indebted to me for my doing so is just as ludicrous.
You're correct, I do understand you. I was raised under such teaching. I interacted with scholars who were doing studies and writing journal articles to distance everything as far away from works as possible. The more I read them and did my own work in the Greek Text, the more I began to see them in just as much error as the ones they were debating.
With that said, I do see the Sovereignty of God interacting with the will of man in ways I still think we don't understand. But, at the end of the analysis I see God honoring men's volition and there being a degree of cooperation between God and man where God not only does not have a problem with men reaching out to receive what He gives but actually requiring he do so. It's still His to give, it's something men could never do for themselves, He says what He determines to be work or works we do that may put Him in debt, it just seems so far out there that anyone can consider our receiving His gift as work in any way shape or form.
I simply don't see belief as completely passive on the part of men and it's not a passive word.
Grabbing may not be the best word but I'm still OK based upon your hypothetical adventure at sea. I likely would be grabbing in that situation.
There are many ways to approach this but a simple one that comes to mind is that we "receive" the Gospel and we "receive" Him. These are active verbs. The Text is telling us people actively received the Gospel, received Jesus, received the gift. It's presented and it's received. I have no issue with the concept of actively pursuing instruction and agreeing to receive it, or agreeing to actively receive Him, or His gifts.
This does not remotely mean that all is not His and only He gives it. The entire concept of boasting because I agreed to accept and receive a gift seems extremely forced to me, even to the point of being ludicrous. My reaching out to receive a gift and making the giver somehow indebted to me for my doing so is just as ludicrous.
You're correct, I do understand you. I was raised under such teaching. I interacted with scholars who were doing studies and writing journal articles to distance everything as far away from works as possible. The more I read them and did my own work in the Greek Text, the more I began to see them in just as much error as the ones they were debating.
With that said, I do see the Sovereignty of God interacting with the will of man in ways I still think we don't understand. But, at the end of the analysis I see God honoring men's volition and there being a degree of cooperation between God and man where God not only does not have a problem with men reaching out to receive what He gives but actually requiring he do so. It's still His to give, it's something men could never do for themselves, He says what He determines to be work or works we do that may put Him in debt, it just seems so far out there that anyone can consider our receiving His gift as work in any way shape or form.
I simply don't see belief as completely passive on the part of men and it's not a passive word.
The Bible nowhere teaches we are saved by faith AND WORKS but just the opposite. See Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:24, James in not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
So, faith alone per James 2:24 = bare profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works).
Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This faith is alive in Christ and does not remain barren of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)
So, I am not changing the meaning of words in order to fit a theology. I am properly defining faith along with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:24, James in not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
So, faith alone per James 2:24 = bare profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works).
Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This faith is alive in Christ and does not remain barren of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)
So, I am not changing the meaning of words in order to fit a theology. I am properly defining faith along with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)
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