Understanding God’s election
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John 3 verses 19-20 and from Psalm 10 verse 4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord
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Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
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Okay, suppose both sides deny each other's evidence.
Isn't the solution for both sides to cite Scripture supporting each side's argument
and then work together to harmonize them?
That is the approach we are using in the systematic and dialectical study of the doctrine of election
on the Hermeneutics thread. All who are willing to apply this method are welcome to participate.
Isn't the solution for both sides to cite Scripture supporting each side's argument
and then work together to harmonize them?
That is the approach we are using in the systematic and dialectical study of the doctrine of election
on the Hermeneutics thread. All who are willing to apply this method are welcome to participate.
Actually, it's clearly in the grammar, so it's quite bizarre to have an aged novice constantly going against what the Word actually says and follow it up with claims he's proven something. Such is eisegetics.
You asked for purpose and @GWH gave you one well-known verse with an actual statement of purpose in it tied to an explanatory verse with 2 more purpose clauses clarifying the main purpose.
I don't know if the response could have been any more succinct. But for the divisive eisegete, there's always another erroneous argument to be manufactured.
You asked for purpose and @GWH gave you one well-known verse with an actual statement of purpose in it tied to an explanatory verse with 2 more purpose clauses clarifying the main purpose.
I don't know if the response could have been any more succinct. But for the divisive eisegete, there's always another erroneous argument to be manufactured.
We might compare the adversarial approach to hermeneutics on this thread to our criminal justice system,
in which the lawyers are supposed to either prosecute or defend, when everyone's role ought to be discovering the facts, determining guilt and assigning just consequence/ restitution, with anyone who withheld pertinent information for
establishing the truth and a fair penalty being culpable of a crime.
in which the lawyers are supposed to either prosecute or defend, when everyone's role ought to be discovering the facts, determining guilt and assigning just consequence/ restitution, with anyone who withheld pertinent information for
establishing the truth and a fair penalty being culpable of a crime.
I get the elect of God idea and how God knew everyone before hand who is gonna be saved because he's God. So I have a random question.
There are differnt classifications of angles. Dominions, power, thrones, ect ect. Why can't thier be differnt classifications of Christians. Maybe the elect are chosen for a purpose ie prophecy or apostleship. Like Paul. There are also the 144k in revaluations. The tribulation saints. Maybe the elect is a certain classification of Christian. Maybe there are just plain old repentive Christians. And no one thing in this universe can pluck any of them out of his hand once they put thier faith in Jesus. Not just the one category called the elect. Just an idea anyways.
There are differnt classifications of angles. Dominions, power, thrones, ect ect. Why can't thier be differnt classifications of Christians. Maybe the elect are chosen for a purpose ie prophecy or apostleship. Like Paul. There are also the 144k in revaluations. The tribulation saints. Maybe the elect is a certain classification of Christian. Maybe there are just plain old repentive Christians. And no one thing in this universe can pluck any of them out of his hand once they put thier faith in Jesus. Not just the one category called the elect. Just an idea anyways.
What is "clearly in the grammar"? This is just another fantasy of yours! You want something that is "clearly in the grammar", such as the truth, then consider this text:
Num 23:8-9
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him;
There! A people [Israel] dwelling alone,
Not reckoning itself among the nations.
NKJV
The the term "kosmos" in Jn 3:16 can only rightfully understood to mean all mankind w/o distinction! And this comports and harmonizes very well with other things John wrote such as:
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
NIV
Do you see what the text DOESN'T say!? It does not say that Christ purchased every man [w/o exception] from every tribe and language and people and nation. Rather, it says that Christ purchased men w/o distinction for God!
And,
Rev 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
NIV
Moreover, a limited interpretation of universal sounding terms such as "kosmos" squares very well with God's specific promise in the Abrahamic Covenant that stipulates that God would make Abraham a father of many [Gentile] nations and that all nations (not each and every individual) would be blessed through him. God never made a universal redemptive covenant with the entire world in the distributive sense! But that redemptive covenant was made with all men w/o distinction in all the nations.
You clearly are reading into Jn 3:16 all men w/o exception -- conveniently forgetting that there can be NO EXCEPTIONS whatsoever if your universal, quantitatively unlimited interpretation is correct! Yet, again, in 1Jn 2:2, which I have exegeted often in the past, John himself EXCLUDES Israel from "the whole world"! Therefore, John's original audience (primarily messianic Jews) were made an exception by John! The "but" in the passage clearly makes a distinction between John, his original audience and the [Gentile] "whole world".
And Jesus himself was onboard with this Jewish understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Gentile nations. After all, he didn't pray for each and every person in the world in his high priestly prayer in John 17. He explicitly omitted the "kosmos"! He prayed only for Abraham's spiritual descendants with whom God decreed to be in covenant relationship, i.e. the two flocks of His sheep who would become one.
Your man-centered, man-glorifying, man-exalting, man-praising abominable FWT theology is nowhere to be found in scripture -- least of all in Jn 3:16!
Num 23:8-9
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him;
There! A people [Israel] dwelling alone,
Not reckoning itself among the nations.
NKJV
The the term "kosmos" in Jn 3:16 can only rightfully understood to mean all mankind w/o distinction! And this comports and harmonizes very well with other things John wrote such as:
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
NIV
Do you see what the text DOESN'T say!? It does not say that Christ purchased every man [w/o exception] from every tribe and language and people and nation. Rather, it says that Christ purchased men w/o distinction for God!
And,
Rev 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
NIV
Moreover, a limited interpretation of universal sounding terms such as "kosmos" squares very well with God's specific promise in the Abrahamic Covenant that stipulates that God would make Abraham a father of many [Gentile] nations and that all nations (not each and every individual) would be blessed through him. God never made a universal redemptive covenant with the entire world in the distributive sense! But that redemptive covenant was made with all men w/o distinction in all the nations.
You clearly are reading into Jn 3:16 all men w/o exception -- conveniently forgetting that there can be NO EXCEPTIONS whatsoever if your universal, quantitatively unlimited interpretation is correct! Yet, again, in 1Jn 2:2, which I have exegeted often in the past, John himself EXCLUDES Israel from "the whole world"! Therefore, John's original audience (primarily messianic Jews) were made an exception by John! The "but" in the passage clearly makes a distinction between John, his original audience and the [Gentile] "whole world".
And Jesus himself was onboard with this Jewish understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Gentile nations. After all, he didn't pray for each and every person in the world in his high priestly prayer in John 17. He explicitly omitted the "kosmos"! He prayed only for Abraham's spiritual descendants with whom God decreed to be in covenant relationship, i.e. the two flocks of His sheep who would become one.
Your man-centered, man-glorifying, man-exalting, man-praising abominable FWT theology is nowhere to be found in scripture -- least of all in Jn 3:16!
Actually, it is in the Greek grammar, and I could show it to you and explain it to you if you truly wanted to know how to analyze the language and if I thought you were sincere, but we know you're not.
From there on your post is simply bait and switch as usual in effort to cover over your error. You can search back and see how I stated what your m.o. is some time ago. When you get cornered, you begin adding to your ad hominin lengthy narratives to divert from and obscure your error. You're long lost if you think I'd consider legitimate your ability to do much of anything with the Text other than to make stuff up for you to start arguments over.
From there on your post is simply bait and switch as usual in effort to cover over your error. You can search back and see how I stated what your m.o. is some time ago. When you get cornered, you begin adding to your ad hominin lengthy narratives to divert from and obscure your error. You're long lost if you think I'd consider legitimate your ability to do much of anything with the Text other than to make stuff up for you to start arguments over.
It would seem to me, if you had any real intention of harmonization – that you would spend a lot more time looking at verses which are addressed to the people of God and do not apply to all.
In doing so, it will then become clear that God does not treat all people the same:
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
Why would God blind their eyes and harden their hearts? Is it not because they were not chosen? God will save His people and leave others to wallow in unbelief! His saving grace is not provided to ALL. He does not love ALL in the same way. In fact, He will put a stumbling block in front of many.
Therefore, God has made it impossible for all to believe! It is not of man but of God.
In doing so, it will then become clear that God does not treat all people the same:
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
Why would God blind their eyes and harden their hearts? Is it not because they were not chosen? God will save His people and leave others to wallow in unbelief! His saving grace is not provided to ALL. He does not love ALL in the same way. In fact, He will put a stumbling block in front of many.
Therefore, God has made it impossible for all to believe! It is not of man but of God.
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Unfortunately it seems many read of Jesus opening the eyes of the
blind and unstopping deaf ears as only being a physical manifestation.
But then they turn around and give credit to themselves for changing their hearts
even though Scripture explicitly says it is Jesus Christ who circumcises our heart.
Isaiah 6 verses 9-10, Luke 8 verse 10, (Matthew 13 verses 14-15, Mark 4 verse 12, Romans 11 verse 8, John 12 verses 39-40, Acts 28 verses 26-27, Ezekiel 12 verse 2, Jeremiah 5 verse 21, Deuteronomy 29 verse 4, Psalm 115 verses 4-8, Psalm 135 verses 15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
blind and unstopping deaf ears as only being a physical manifestation.
But then they turn around and give credit to themselves for changing their hearts
even though Scripture explicitly says it is Jesus Christ who circumcises our heart.
Isaiah 6 verses 9-10, Luke 8 verse 10, (Matthew 13 verses 14-15, Mark 4 verse 12, Romans 11 verse 8, John 12 verses 39-40, Acts 28 verses 26-27, Ezekiel 12 verse 2, Jeremiah 5 verse 21, Deuteronomy 29 verse 4, Psalm 115 verses 4-8, Psalm 135 verses 15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
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