Systematic Bible Study

GWH · May 15, 2025

Mem said:

Yes, this is what I said in post #28:

I pulled the book on Ephesians by my favorite commentator William Barclay down from my library shelf to refresh my memory about what he said regarding its interpretation, and he cited 3:1 to indicate that it was written while Paul was in prison and noted 55 verses are almost the same as in the epistle to the Colossians. Referring to 1:1 Barclay said that none of the best early manuscripts have the words "in Ephesus", which supports the view that this was a circular missive, apparently meant for both Gentiles and Jews.

Regarding 2:10, I like the BSB translation of walking as "way of life", because it implies "walking with God or in the Spirit" and allows for occasional sins that need to be confessed.
The verse you were looking for is Isaiah 30:21.

Mem · May 15, 2025

GWH said:

Nice, thanks for retrieving it for easier reference, especially noting that " your ears shall hear a word behind you..." as a mirroring of "...which God prepared beforehand..."

GWH · May 16, 2025

EPH 3:1-6 – “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.”

“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles” – this epistle should be read with Colossians,
which refers to Paul being in chains (Col. 4:3&18), so perhaps we will do so.
“surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you” – this assignment is recorded in
Acts 9:15-16. Although his focus was the Gentiles, Jews were not excluded per Acts 28:17-23.
“that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation” – this mystery was described in Eph. 2:13-22 and is mentioned also in
Rom. 11:25 & 16:25 as well as in Colossians
“as I have already written briefly” – Barclay translates this as “as I have just been writing to you”, which would refer again to Eph. 2:13-22.
“In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ” – yet a third time Paul referred to Eph. 2:13f.
“which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed” – this statement is paralleled by Rom. 16:25 & Col. 1:26.
“by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.” - Rom. 16:26 indicates that Paul has the writings of the OT prophets in mind, as Jesus explained per Luke 24:45-47.

PaulThomson · May 16, 2025

GWH said:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore (ἄρα οὖν) no more (οὐκέτι) you are (ἐστὲ) strangers (ξένοι) and foreigners (καὶ πάροικοι), but rather (ἀλλὰ) fellow-citizens (συμπολῖται) of/with the saints, (τῶν ἁγίων, genitive) and (καὶ) a household (οἰκεῖοι) of the God; (τοῦ θεοῦ)
Eph 2:20 having been built (ἐποικοδομηθέντες, aorist passive participle) at-rest-upon the foundation (ἐπὶ τῷ θεμελίῳ, dative) of the apostles (τῶν ἀποστόλων) and of prophets, (καὶ προφητῶν) being ( ὄντος) the chief corner stone (ἀκρογωνιαίου) of it (αὐτοῦ), of Jesus Christ (Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ)
Eph 2:21 In whom (ἐν ᾧ ) all (πᾶσα) the building (ἥ οἰκοδομὴ) being fitly framed together (συναρμολογουμένη, present passive participle) is growing (αὔξει) into (εἰς) a temple holy (ναὸν ἅγιον) in/by means of what characterises the Lord (ἐν κυρίῳ, anarthrous dative):
Eph 2:22 In whom (ἐν ᾧ ) also (καὶ) you (ὑμεῖς) are being builded together (συνοικοδομεῖσθε, present passive indicative) into/for an habitation (εἰς κατοικητήριον) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ) at-rest-in/by means-of what characterises the Spirit ( ἐν πνεύματι, anarthrous dative).

My own paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -

Now therefore you are not still guest-friends in our homes, and citizens of neighbouring countries dwelling beside us within our country, but rather you are now fellow-citizens with the saints in the Kingdom of God, and members with us of God's household, after being built in place on the foundation of the apostles and of prophets of Jesus Christ, he being the chief cornerstone of it, i.e. of the foundation.

In Jesus Christ all the building, while being fitly framed together, is growing into a holy temple which is in conformity to the character of the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom you are being built together into a place for God to dwell in, a dwelling place that is in conformity to the character of the Spirit.

1. ἄρα is probably from αἴρω (to draw, through the idea of drawing a conclusion). The conclusion drawn from what precedes is what follows.

2. ouketi means not ouk still eti. It indicates a change from a past state to a present state. It des not in itself infer that the past state will never recur. See it used here -
Mar 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more (ouketi), G3765 save Jesus only with themselves.

This does not mean they never saw anyone with Jesus ever again other than themselves. It means that in the present thay were not surrounded by badgering scholars as they had been earlier, but those had all left. We should beware of imbuing ouketi elsewhere with a permanency that it does not actually imply. Such as -
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer (ouketi):

3. There are three analogies made in this passage: sojourners in a foreign country becoming naturalised citizens in a country; neighbours to a particular household becoming members of that particular household; disparate building blocks in a temple that have been gathered and are still being gathered from off-site and are presently being assembled on a single foundation.

4. The foundation upon which this dwelling place for God that is being assembled, is the apostles and prophets of Jesus, with Jesus as the stone first laid to orientate and situate the entire building correctly according to the will of the Architect.

5. The anarthrous noun according to some may denote an indefinite instance of the noun e.g. growing into a holy temple ἐν κυρίῳ (anarthrous dative) in/by means of a lord. Or it may indicate that which is characteristic of the noun e.g. growing into a holy temple by means of what is characteristic of the Lord, i.e. by wisdom, love, kindness, joy. peace, patience, faithfulness etc.

Likewise, are being builded together into an habitation of the only true God (τοῦ θεοῦ) by means of what characterises the Spirit ( ἐν πνεύματι, anarthrous dative), such as by exercising spiritual gifts, by glorifying Jesus in the world, by convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. By these the stones are brought to the building site and added to the foundation.

6. What we can draw from Paul's first two chapters is that God's intention for the church is far broader than merely selecting individuals out of the world to populate the new earth, but to mold those individuals generation by generation into a cooperating unit who work together to be a family and to draw more people from every tribe and tongue and nation into that family, all participating on equal terms.

GWH · May 16, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore (ἄρα οὖν) no more (οὐκέτι) you are (ἐστὲ) strangers (ξένοι) and foreigners (καὶ πάροικοι), but rather (ἀλλὰ) fellow-citizens (συμπολῖται) of/with the saints, (τῶν ἁγίων, genitive) and (καὶ) a household (οἰκεῖοι) of the God; (τοῦ θεοῦ)
Eph 2:20 having been built (ἐποικοδομηθέντες, aorist passive participle) at-rest-upon the foundation (ἐπὶ τῷ θεμελίῳ, dative) of the apostles (τῶν ἀποστόλων) and of prophets, (καὶ προφητῶν) being ( ὄντος) the chief corner stone (ἀκρογωνιαίου) of it (αὐτοῦ), of Jesus Christ (Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ)
Eph 2:21 In whom (ἐν ᾧ ) all (πᾶσα) the building (ἥ οἰκοδομὴ) being fitly framed together (συναρμολογουμένη, present passive participle) is growing (αὔξει) into (εἰς) a temple holy (ναὸν ἅγιον) in/by means of what characterises the Lord (ἐν κυρίῳ, anarthrous dative):
Eph 2:22 In whom (ἐν ᾧ ) also (καὶ) you (ὑμεῖς) are being builded together (συνοικοδομεῖσθε, present passive indicative) into/for an habitation (εἰς κατοικητήριον) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ) at-rest-in/by means-of what characterises the Spirit ( ἐν πνεύματι, anarthrous dative).

My own paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -

Now therefore you are not still guest-friends in our homes, and citizens of neighbouring countries dwelling beside us within our country, but rather you are now fellow-citizens with the saints in the Kingdom of God, and members with us of God's household, after being built in place on the foundation of the apostles and of prophets of Jesus Christ, he being the chief cornerstone of it, i.e. of the foundation.
In Jesus Christ all the building, while being fitly framed together, is growing into a holy temple which is in conformity to the character of the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom you are being built together into a place for God to dwell in, a dwelling place that is in conformity to the character of the Spirit.

1. ἄρα is probably from αἴρω (to draw, through the idea of drawing a conclusion). The conclusion drawn from what precedes is what follows.

2. ouketi means not ouk still eti. It indicates a change from a past state to a present state. It des not in itself infer that the past state will never recur. See it used here -
Mar 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more (ouketi), G3765 save Jesus only with themselves.

This does not mean they never saw anyone with Jesus ever again other than themselves. It means that in the present thay were not surrounded by badgering scholars as they had been earlier, but those had all left. We should beware of imbuing ouketi elsewhere with a permanency that it does not actually imply. Such as -
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer (ouketi):

3. There are three analogies made in this passage: sojourners in a foreign country becoming naturalised citizens in a country; neighbours to a particular household becoming members of that particular household; disparate building blocks in a temple that have been gathered and are still being gathered from off-site and are presently being assembled on a single foundation.

4. The foundation upon which this dwelling place for God that is being assembled, is the apostles and prophets of Jesus, with Jesus as the stone first laid to orientate and situate the entire building correctly according to the will of the Architect.

5. The anarthrous noun according to some may denote an indefinite instance of the noun e.g. growing into a holy temple ἐν κυρίῳ (anarthrous dative) in/by means of a lord. Or it may indicate that which is characteristic of the noun e.g. growing into a holy temple by means of what is characteristic of the Lord, i.e. by wisdom, love, kindness, joy. peace, patience, faithfulness etc.

Likewise, are being builded together into an habitation of the only true God (τοῦ θεοῦ) by means of what characterises the Spirit ( ἐν πνεύματι, anarthrous dative), such as by exercising spiritual gifts, by glorifying Jesus in the world, by convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. By these the stones are brought to the building site and added to the foundation.

6. What we can draw from Paul's first two chapters is that God's intention for the church is far broader than merely selecting individuals out of the world to populate the new earth, but to mold those individuals generation by generation into a cooperating unit who work together to be a family and to draw more people from every tribe and tongue and nation into that family, all participating on equal terms.

Thanks for catching up, Paul. Your translation expertise is greatly appreciated. If I overlook something that differs significantly from the NIV, please let us know. So far I am reassured by your translation essentially agreeing with the NIV.

Mem noted regarding Eph. 2:10 that the BSB translates walking as "way of life", which I appreciated because it implies "walking with God or in the Spirit" and allows for occasional sins that need to be confessed. I also liked her pointing to Isaiah 30:21 as commentary. Do you agree?

GWH · May 20, 2025

EPH 3:7-9 – “I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.”

“I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace” – reiteration of v. 2
“given me through the working of his power” – this is vague, but might refer to “Damascus Road” (cf. the comment regarding Eph. 1:1)
“Although I am less than the least of all God’s people” – see the last paragraph of the comment re 1:1
“this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ” – cf. the comment on 1:1&10; riches will be mentioned again in 3:16 and is found also in Col. 1:27 & 22 and Rom. 9:23 & 11:33
“and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery” – everyone must include the Jews; administration must include revelation and explanation
“which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.” - which refers to the mystery (cf. Eph. 1:9-10 & 2:11-22)

Comments?

PaulThomson · May 21, 2025

GWH said:

Eph 3:7
Of which gospel (οὗ) I became (ἐγενόμην, aorist middle deponent indicative) a minister (διάκονος), according to/on the basis of the gift (κατὰ τὴν δωρεὰν) of the grace (τῆς χάριτος) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ) after giving it (τὴν δοθεῖσαν, aorist passive participle) to me (μοι) in accordance with/on the basis of the effectual working (κατὰ τὴν ἐνέργειαν) of his power (τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ).
Eph 3:8 To me (ἐμοὶ), to the least (τῷ ἐλαχιστοτέρῳ) of all (πάντων) of the saints (τῶν ἁγίων), is/was given (ἐδόθη, aorist passive indicative) this grace (ἡ χάρις αὕτη), among the Gentiles (ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν) to have been preached (εὐαγγελίσασθαι, aorist passive infinitive) the unsearchable (τὸν ἀνεξιχνίαστον) riches (πλοῦτον) of Christ (τοῦ Χριστοῦ);
Eph 3:9 And to enlighten (καὶ φωτίσαι, aorist active infinitive) all men (πάντας) what (τίς) is the partnership (ἡ κοινωνία) of the mystery (τοῦ μυστηρίου), of the having been hid mystery (τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου, perfect passive participle) from the ages (ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων) in the God (ἐν τῷ θεῷ) to/for/in whom (τῷ) everything (τὰ πάντα) exists after creating (κτίσαντι, aorist active participle dative singular masculine) through Jesus Christ ( διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ)

7 Of this gospel I became a minister according to the gift of God's grace, after giving that divine grace to me according to the effectual working of His power.
8 This divine grace, which is according to the effectual working of His power, was given to me, who am the least of all the saints, so that the unsearchable riches of Christ have been preached, 9 and so that all men are made to see what is the partnership of the mystery, having been hidden since the ages in God, to/for/in/by whom is everything, having created it through Jesus. Christ.

1. In verse 7a, Paul states that the gospel given to him but he did not deserve to be shown it.

2. In verse 7b Paul states that the gospel he received did not just have words, but also had power. As Mark said -
Mar 16:20
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

3. In verse 8a, Paul acknowledges that he is the least deserving of the saints to be called a saint, since he was the worst persecutor of Christ before Jesus called Him.

4. In verse 8b, Paul attributes the successful preaching of the unsearchable riches of Christ to the effectual working of the Holy Spirit confirming the word Paul has been preaching was what God had given to him to preach.

5. The primary meaning of koinOnia is partnership. Who are the partners Paul has in mind here, in 9a & b? Jews and Gentiles in partnership building the Kingdom of God? Saints and God in partnership building the Kingdom of God? I lean toward Jews and Gentiles in partnership to grow God's one family. The love within the Jew-Gentile church causes all men to see the outworking of God's once-secret plan to make of the two separate peoples one body in Christ.

6. In 9c Paul says that since everything was made by God through Jesus Christ, it all belongs to God; and it is therefore fitting that all things that had become fractured and at odds by sin become united into a harmonious unity again for God by Jesus Christ.

GWH · May 23, 2025

EPH 3:10-11 – “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

“His intent was that now” - “intent” refers to the mystery in v.4-9; “now” means now revealed as in v.5
“through the church” – “church” refers to the body of Christ in 1:22-23 (cf. Col. 1:24)
“the manifold wisdom of God should be made known” – “wisdom” = the Gospel (1Cor. 1:17-24 & 2:7)
“to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms” – this concept is found in 1:21 & echoed in Eph. 6:12 & Col. 1:16
“according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord” – this was purpose was introduced in 1:9-10

Mem · May 23, 2025

PaulThomson said:

GWH said:

Seeing the sin was judged in the flesh through Christ, then doesn't that effectively eliminate the obstacle in God's plan for a perfect creation?

GWH · May 23, 2025

Mem said:

Yes, at the culmination/eschaton, when judgment will be perfectly just.

PaulThomson · May 23, 2025

Mem said:

It eliminates an obstacle. Sins are a product of distrust toward God. Although the provision of amnesty regarding sins is intended to inspire thanks and trust, we still have the freedom to either trust or distrust God. That obstacle we ourselves must choose to cast aside. by putting faith in Jesus. All who do that can be effectively united in Christ, and will be given the new heaven and earth; with those who do not, will be given "a place" to inhabit for themselves, separated from those in Christ..

GWH · May 24, 2025

Yes, and we who are of European descent should note that at this point in GW it is revealed God's POS includes those
whose heritage was polytheistic paganism of the descendants of Japheth per Gen. 10:1-5. This included Celtic druidism
and Norse or North Germanic worship of Odin.

In Genesis 10, it appears that the Hamites became nations in Africa and the Middle East,
the Semites also became nations in the Middle East, and the Japhethites spread westward via the Mediterranean Sea.
It is unclear from whom the oriental, American and sub-Saharan people were descended per GN 10.

PaulThomson · May 24, 2025

GWH said:

Yes, and we who are of European descent should note that at this point in GW it is revealed God's POS includes those
whose heritage was polytheistic paganism of the descendants of Japheth per Gen. 10:1-5. This included Celtic druidism
and Norse or North Germanic worship of Odin.

In Genesis 10, it appears that the Hamites became nations in Africa and the Middle East,
the Semites also became nations in the Middle East, and the Japhethites spread westward via the Mediterranean Sea.
It is unclear from whom the oriental, American and sub-Saharan people were descended per GN 10.

Do you have some affinity for British Israelism?

GWH · May 24, 2025

PaulThomson said:

British Israelism, also known as Anglo-Israelism, is the belief that the "lost ten tribes" of Israel migrated to Europe and then to England.

No, only for Anglo-Japhethism/Noahism/Adamism,
with the possibility that Eden was in Africa.

PaulThomson · May 25, 2025

GWH said:

Eph. 3:8 This divine grace, which is according to the effectual working of His power, was given to me, who am the least of all the saints, so that the unsearchable riches of Christ have been preached, 9 and so that (hina) all men are made to see what is the partnership of the mystery, having been hidden since the ages in God, to/for/in/by whom is everything, having created it through Jesus Christ.
Eph 3:10 Having created everything with the intent that (ἵνα) might be known (γνωρισθῇ, aorist passive subjunctive) now (νῦν) unto the principalities (ταῖς ἀρχαῖς) and the powers ( καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις) in the heavenly places (ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις) through the church (διὰ τῆς ἐκκλησίας) the much variegated (ἡ πολυποίκιλος) wisdom (σοφία, nominative singular feminine) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ),
Eph 3:11 According to (κατὰ ) purpose (πρόθεσιν, accusative singular feminine) of the ages (τῶν αἰώνων) which (ἣν, accusative singular feminine) he makes/does (ἐποίησεν, aorist active indicative) in Christ Jesus (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ) the Lord of us (τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν):

My translation of the sense of the Greek text -

Having created everything with the intent that through the church at this time the multi-faceted wisdom of God might be known to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, according to a purpose pertaining to all the ages, which He brings to pass in all ages by means of Jesus Christ the Lord.

1. This seems to be saying that God's original intention in creating this cosmos was for the sake of the principalities and powers. God wanted the principalities and powers to see what God is now doing through the church, and will do through the church, through our trust in God's merciful character and our resultant submission to Jesus Christ as Lord.
What was God intending the angels, whether faithful or fallen, to learn from this revelation of God's mercy toward human sinners, now evident in the church?
Is He offering hope of reconciiation to demons through His promise that "a broken and contrite spirit He will not reject"?
Does His desire to save as much of creation as possible extend to the angelic realm?
Why are we told that we will judge angels. of their fate is already sealed, and we cannot possibly acquit any of them?

GWH · May 25, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Eph. 3:8 This divine grace, which is according to the effectual working of His power, was given to me, who am the least of all the saints, so that the unsearchable riches of Christ have been preached, 9 and so that (hina) all men are made to see what is the partnership of the mystery, having been hidden since the ages in God, to/for/in/by whom is everything, having created it through Jesus Christ.
Eph 3:10 Having created everything with the intent that (ἵνα) might be known (γνωρισθῇ, aorist passive subjunctive) now (νῦν) unto the principalities (ταῖς ἀρχαῖς) and the powers ( καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις) in the heavenly places (ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις) through the church (διὰ τῆς ἐκκλησίας) the much variegated (ἡ πολυποίκιλος) wisdom (σοφία, nominative singular feminine) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ),
Eph 3:11 According to (κατὰ ) purpose (πρόθεσιν, accusative singular feminine) of the ages (τῶν αἰώνων) which (ἣν, accusative singular feminine) he makes/does (ἐποίησεν, aorist active indicative) in Christ Jesus (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ) the Lord of us (τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν):

My translation of the sense of the Greek text -

Having created everything with the intent that through the church at this time the multi-faceted wisdom of God might be known to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, according to a purpose pertaining to all the ages, which He brings to pass in all ages by means of Jesus Christ the Lord.

1. This seems to be saying that God's original intention in creating this cosmos was for the sake of the principalities and powers. God wanted the principalities and powers to see what God is now doing through the church, and will do through the church, through our trust in God's merciful character and our resultant submission to Jesus Christ as Lord.
What was God intending the angels, whether faithful or fallen, to learn from this revelation of God's mercy toward human sinners, now evident in the church?
Is He offering hope of reconciiation to demons through His promise that "a broken and contrite spirit He will not reject"?
Does His desire to save as much of creation as possible extend to the angelic realm?
Why are we told that we will judge angels. of their fate is already sealed, and we cannot possibly acquit any of them?

Love those slashes in v.9!

You raise an interesting point: Perhaps God's POS includes angelic/demonic souls,
and so their final destiny also awaits Judgment Day. Hmmm.

Pilgrimshope · May 25, 2025

GWH said:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils,….. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they tremble and trifle with men because they know what’s coming to them the day of judgement

GWH · May 25, 2025

Pilgrimshope said:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils,….. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they tremble and trifle with men because they know what’s coming to them the day of judgement

Thanks for those teachings, which I have never put together, finding angelology to be a confusing doctrine,
but now I think I am beginning to understand that God's POS includes them too, and the punishment of those
who rejected heaven will be the worst, because they more than humans should have known better!

PaulThomson · May 26, 2025

Pilgrimshope said:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils,….. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they tremble and trifle with men because they know what’s coming to them the day of judgement

But also -
Eze 33:12
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

GWH · May 26, 2025

PaulThomson said:

Another relevant Scripture I had not focused on even after being reminded of Eze. 33:11 recently,
although we must understand "sinneth" in light of NT teaching regarding the possibility of apostasy.

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