What is your view of Ezekiel's Temple?
- Thread starter greenonions
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yeah, I agree. And who says that just because a temple is being built that any kind of animal sacrifice has to happen??? We Christians don't have anything of the sort in our churches now.
So I can see Jesus live at the Temple and since His sacrifice is perfect and complete, no other sacrifice needs to be done anymore!
What is your proof that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's specs. According to the Talmud both the Altar and Solomon's porch where to Ezekiel's specs.
What is more telling is the fact that Zadok's sons were in charge of the second temple just as Ezekiel stated four times. There is no Zadok sons living today.
You're kidding right? You do know that Solomon's temple existed and then was destroyed long before Ezekiel's vision of a "second temple" -yes? The first was built by King Solomon around 960 BCE and was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE.
That's one easy way to know that Solomon's temple was not built to Ezekiel's specs. Unless you are talking about the second temple that was built after the exile in 517 BCE and was later renovated and expanded by King Herod. The second temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. That one was modest in terms of construction and did not follow the detailed dimensions and grandeur depicted in Ezekiel's vision. The Second Temple, even during Herod's expansion, did not match the Ezekiel's specifications.
Ezekiel's temple has a larger scale and different layout than Solomon's Temple. For example, Ezekiel describes a very large temple complex with distinct features and dimensions not found in the description of Solomon's Temple. The Talmud was compiled centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple, so it doesn't offer direct insights into the specifics of Solomon's Porch as it existed at the time of Jesus.
Prince נָשִׂיא nâsîyʼ, naw-see'; or נָשִׂא nâsiʼ; from H5375; properly, an exalted one, i.e. a king or sheik; also a rising mist:—captain, chief, cloud, governor, prince, ruler, vapour.
Whoever is the ruler of Israel should be considered "the prince". who could enter the eastern porch and eat bread before the Lord there, I don't think the wording implies that the prince could enter the temple precincts through that porch. If the temple had been built and Jesus had come to that temple instead of the Hasmonean and Herodian temple, then as the king of Israel, Jesus would have been entitled to enter into porch of the east gate and eat bread before the Lord there.
Here's a video by some fellow who has created a model of the Ezekieline temple.
He says Ezekiel's design is too big to fit on the extant mountain. He suggests the area will be extended when the Mount of Olives splits in two. But maybe, had the Jews begun by faith to build according to Ezekiel's design, as the priests began to cross the Red Sea while the waters were still in place, perhaps God would have divided the mountain and extended the area for them, as He divided the waters of the Red Sea for the Israelites to cross over dry shod.
Ezekiel seems to be enjoining the Jews to whom he was showing the temple plans, that they should carry out construction and serve God in it.
Ez. 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof and the comings in thereof and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof and all the ordinances thereof and do them.
There is always more than one view to scripture. A flesh protect view, or God in Spirit and Truth view (John 4:23-24)
God gives, as God sees need for us each to see, when the time is right in growing up for each child of God in God by risen Son for them. Hebrews 5:12-6:8
Once anyone is born new (Again) by God in each person, the new life begins and one sees things not seen priorly, is sealed by God to see over time in one not quitting, willingly learning from every mistake made, seeing in thanksgiving and praise all sin is now by Son taken away for us to walk new and learn new in has been forgiven (Psalm 103:12) (Eph 1:13). This awareness of evil all over this world and even in our first birth too, gets people into thought over it and either do as Peter did that pulled out his sword and cut off the enemies ear (Malchus)
And Jesus stops Peter and restores Malchus's ear. Says go ahead take me, willingly
Now see it from Malchus sight at that time. as if you are seeing this happening through the Eye sight of Malchus. God willing you will.
there is a big difference between the first born flesh spirit and God's Spirit, Holy coming in us to live with us, (even though our first birth is not redeemed) God to teach us new in true Love and mercy for us all from God, by Son's done work first, all sin taken out of the way from Daddy's, Father's PaPa's view
How can anyone refuse, sin Father by Son did, what is done. I have trouble understanding that. God did for us all what no other can or could do, The Saints of the First (Old) Testament were in dependance on the Messiah coming and taking care of the problem. Not ever knowing how, just stood in trust, no matter how long it might take. Hebrews 11
We here today are looking back to that happening and they were looking forward to it to happen.
On this side of the cross is amazing to em and seeing it, even though I do not deserve to have it, God gave it, I respond in (Psalm 100:4) and (Psalm 103:12) I have sinned and sinned again after belief to this amazing truth from God given us all to see and believe as well. Then stand and stand as those fiery darts keep being sent from evil to subdue me and you and anyone else that chooses to stand in belief to its is done for them too
So stand, therefore stand, take it another blow another cut, another berating from even those in religion. Stand silently in trust and see you will not burn up as those in the King Nebuchadnezzar's fire did not burn at all, who saw four people in that fire and asked didn't we throw in three, I see. a fourth, they said for the door to be opened and let them out and they did and were burned to death and they came out untouched, not even a hair on their heads singed
Or like in the Lion's den, David not eaten.
T-ruth
R-edeemed
U-nder
T-he
H-eaven
Or even John Newton, who wrote amazing grace, who was a slave trader and stripped being one, the miraculous change people have and is in them, and only they know it between God and them personally, that to me is Love beyond measure and you too brother, thank you
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24 KJV
worship him in spirit
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
And in The Truth
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
…He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jesus answered and said unto him,
If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:15-17, 21, 23-24
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
We need to make the connection to the gospel the word of God or we’ll never know the truth that sets us free …..it never changes and is how we are born again
“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever….. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
1 Peter 1:22-23, 25 KJV
Not kidding. Solomon's porch was to be rebuilt. The dimensions when Solomon first built it was a length of twenty cubits and a breadth of 10 cubits. When it was rebuilt, according to the Talmud, it was 20 cubits by 11 cubits, which was the same as Ezekiel's dimensions.
How do you explain the fact that the sons of Zadok were to be in charge. Ezekiel 40:46, 43:19, 44:15, and 48:11. And they actually were in charge of the second temple.
If you think that the temple Ezekiel saw was in heaven, then these sons of Zadok too, are heavenly. Your original question asked for "proof" that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's specs. I offer you scripture showing that it was not.
Now you ask for an explanation regarding the sons of Zadok being in charge of a temple that was not the temple that Ezekiel saw in spirit...? The idea that some sons of Zadok, who in turn were sons of Levi- served in Zerubbabel's second temple has no bearing whatsoever on what Ezekiel envisioned. Just because a house has a porch-- doesn't mean it is "that' house. Do you see that?
What you are doing is trying to force a square peg into a round hole in both a scriptural and historical sense. It doesn't fit.
Well, then you are ignoring what is stated in scripture regarding that temple and it's dimensions and specs while imagining something that never was. Enjoy your delusion.
It really boils down to only a few possibilities: (CRI)
1. Solomon’s Temple?
Except when Ezekiel had his vision there was no temple standing in Jerusalem. Solomon’s temple, which had previously stood there, had been destroyed thirteen years earlier by Nebuchadnezzar, when he conquered Jerusalem and deported the citizens to Babylon. This means that Ezekiel was not seeing Solomon’s temple, or any temple that was actually standing at the time.
2. Zerubbabel’s Temple?
The temple that came to be built under the leadership of Zerubbabel, on the return of the Jews from Babylon to Jerusalem seems to be ruled out by the fact that Zerubbabel’s temple ended up being much smaller, and less elaborate, than the one Ezekiel describes. If Ezekiel was prophesying that the temple built by the returning exiles would fit this description, the prophecy failed to come true. This option does not comport with scripture.
3. The Church?
Was it an apocalyptic vision, best interpreted spiritually? The church, in the New Testament, is often referred to as God’s “temple” or habitation. Each Christian is a “living stone” (1 Pet. 2:5), built, along with others, “upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) into a “temple of God” (1 Cor. 3:16). On this view, the features of temple worship—priests, altars, sacrifices, blood rituals—would be seen as pertaining to spiritual, rather than literal realities, and applied to our worship of God in the present time. In particular, the description of the river, in chapter 47, would seem to support a nonliteral interpretation.
4. A Future Millennial Temple? Another view of this vision, commonly held among dispensationalists, is that Ezekiel’s temple will be established after the second coming of Christ and will serve as the worship center for all people during the “millennium.” On this view, the one described as “the prince” is often identified as Christ Himself, ruling over the millennial kingdom.
1. Solomon’s Temple?
Except when Ezekiel had his vision there was no temple standing in Jerusalem. Solomon’s temple, which had previously stood there, had been destroyed thirteen years earlier by Nebuchadnezzar, when he conquered Jerusalem and deported the citizens to Babylon. This means that Ezekiel was not seeing Solomon’s temple, or any temple that was actually standing at the time.
2. Zerubbabel’s Temple?
The temple that came to be built under the leadership of Zerubbabel, on the return of the Jews from Babylon to Jerusalem seems to be ruled out by the fact that Zerubbabel’s temple ended up being much smaller, and less elaborate, than the one Ezekiel describes. If Ezekiel was prophesying that the temple built by the returning exiles would fit this description, the prophecy failed to come true. This option does not comport with scripture.
3. The Church?
Was it an apocalyptic vision, best interpreted spiritually? The church, in the New Testament, is often referred to as God’s “temple” or habitation. Each Christian is a “living stone” (1 Pet. 2:5), built, along with others, “upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) into a “temple of God” (1 Cor. 3:16). On this view, the features of temple worship—priests, altars, sacrifices, blood rituals—would be seen as pertaining to spiritual, rather than literal realities, and applied to our worship of God in the present time. In particular, the description of the river, in chapter 47, would seem to support a nonliteral interpretation.
4. A Future Millennial Temple? Another view of this vision, commonly held among dispensationalists, is that Ezekiel’s temple will be established after the second coming of Christ and will serve as the worship center for all people during the “millennium.” On this view, the one described as “the prince” is often identified as Christ Himself, ruling over the millennial kingdom.
The present area of the temple mount is 37 acres. Ezekiel's temple proper covers 17.576 acres, but with environs would need 55.5 acres.
So, the Israelites could have begun to build the temple proper described by Ezekiel with the Israelites asking God to somehow increase the temple mount area to allow the environs to be added. This would have been exhibiting a faith like Abraham's, believing for the seemingly impossible. But they did not have Abraham's faith it seems. Maybe, if they had, their response to Messiah's arrival may have played out somewhat differently from the way it did.
I've been paying attention to Isaiah 10 especially the connection to this verse and today's weaponry:
He will cut down the thickets of the forest with an iron axe, and Lebanon (the Assyrian) will fall by the Mighty One.
The planes are missiles being used for this current that Israel uses a computer generated name, like how we name hurricanes. But Israel is using the Iron Battalion or something but it specifically has iron in it.
The significance is the next chapter Isaiah 11 is the coming Messiah.
Matthew 24 Jesus made it clear about watching the end of Summer because we know the Feast of Trumpets in the Fall time represents the coming of the Lord. So from the warning in Matthew 24 until today it's been the season of Summer.
Anyway, this is why the Rabbis have suddenly voted in a High Priest because it requires a functioning Sanhedrin to vote that someone is the Messiah which they will vote in the antichrist. Plus they are preparing the offering sacrifice for the Red Heifer and prophecy says on the 10th time this happens the Messiah is coming and this specific Red Heifer sacrifice is the 10th one in the history of the Jewish people.
Of course, the Red Heifer sacrifice is done before they rebuild the Temple which is prepared and just waiting to be assembled
He will cut down the thickets of the forest with an iron axe, and Lebanon (the Assyrian) will fall by the Mighty One.
The planes are missiles being used for this current that Israel uses a computer generated name, like how we name hurricanes. But Israel is using the Iron Battalion or something but it specifically has iron in it.
The significance is the next chapter Isaiah 11 is the coming Messiah.
Matthew 24 Jesus made it clear about watching the end of Summer because we know the Feast of Trumpets in the Fall time represents the coming of the Lord. So from the warning in Matthew 24 until today it's been the season of Summer.
Anyway, this is why the Rabbis have suddenly voted in a High Priest because it requires a functioning Sanhedrin to vote that someone is the Messiah which they will vote in the antichrist. Plus they are preparing the offering sacrifice for the Red Heifer and prophecy says on the 10th time this happens the Messiah is coming and this specific Red Heifer sacrifice is the 10th one in the history of the Jewish people.
Of course, the Red Heifer sacrifice is done before they rebuild the Temple which is prepared and just waiting to be assembled
You seem like a genuinely nice guy and to be a good student of scripture. I can't figure out why you are so deeply invested in an idea that simply doesn't align with any of it. You've chosen your own thoughts over what is written.
"Zerubbabel's temple" as you call it, was in fact- Cyrus' temple. He authorized it, approved it, funded it and ordered it built. No where in the text is there any reference to Ezekiel's heavenly vision. It was a project that Zerubbabel undertook to build anything according to what Ezekiel saw. That would have been worth mentioning in the Book of Ezra, if it had been the case. But it wasn't.
It was a rebuilding of Solomon's temple. And in many ways, a sad effort at that. The text says that those who remembered the former temple (Solomon's) wept when looking at Zerubbabel's efforts.
We are rebuilding the temple which was previously built many years ago. A great king of Israel built it and completed it. But after our ancestors angered the God of heaven, he delivered them into the hands of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and exiled the people to Babylon. But in the first year of King Cyrus of Babylon, King Cyrus enacted a decree to rebuild this temple of God. Even the gold and silver vessels of the temple of God that Nebuchadnezzar had taken from the temple in Jerusalem and had brought to the palace of Babylon—even those things King Cyrus brought from the palace of Babylon and presented to a man by the name of Sheshbazzar whom he had appointed as governor. He said to him, “Take these vessels and go deposit them in the temple in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be rebuilt in its proper location.” Then this Sheshbazzar went and laid the foundations of the temple of God in Jerusalem. From that time to the present moment it has been in the process of being rebuilt, although it is not yet finished.’
The book of Haggai also describes it as a rebuilding of the former temple on the same site where only ruins remained after the Babylonians completely destroyed it. But again in Haggai-- no mention of any attempt to build anything according to Ezekiel's vision.
The complete destruction is described in 2 Kings 25>>
On the seventh day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, Nebuzaradan, the captain of the royal guard, who served the king of Babylon, arrived in Jerusalem. He burned down the LORD’s temple, the royal palace, and all the houses in Jerusalem, including every large house. The whole Babylonian army that came with the captain of the royal guard tore down the walls that surrounded Jerusalem.
Ezekiel didn't see "blueprints" for the construction of a temple. He saw "the temple" in spirit. It already existed, and it still exists. It's spiritual--- how can someone read the new testament and not understand this basic Christian principle?
We are the temple of the living God.
We presently have different perspectives on this, MrE.
The vision we given to Ezekiel after the destruction of the Solomonic temple and before the construction of the Hasmonean/Herodian temple was built before the Messiah came. I don't see any reason to be certain that Ezekiel's temple was merely a blueprint of the church, a temple of living human stones, which would be built by Messiah after He came. Maybe you are right, maybe not. What's your evidence? How do you relate each of the details of the Ezekiel temple to the church?
My evidence is scripture. No where is scripture is Ezekiel told to build a copy of what he saw. He's told simply to write down what he saw. He isn't told to tell Israel to build it. It just isn't there. Yes- I'm certain of this. Secondly, when the building effort began 13, or 14 years later-- it was a rebuilding effort. An attempt to rebuild what had already been before-- it was not a new project for a new and greater temple beyond what Solomon had built. Again-- 'the evidence' is scripture, which is clear. The project that was undertaken was not according to Ezekiel's vision.
A couple of other things-- what Ezekiel saw, had no roof. You have to admit, that it would be rather silly for Zerubbabel's project to be built according to that vision.
It's incredibly sad to me that there are millions of Christians who are waiting for a king to come and reign on a throne on earth, from Jerusalem, and for sacrifices to be made once again in a temple. It's exactly what the Jews were waiting for and expecting--- and they missed the coming of Christ entirely, while he walked among them.
Lastly-- I never said that what Ezekiel saw was "a blueprint for the church." Those are your words. He saw 'the church.'
But yes, you do you.
I'm not invested in what I am suggesting as a explanation for Ezekiel's vision. I am simply saying "here's another possibility." We are all able to propose theories and put forth what we think is supporting evidence for our theories. Asserting that Ezekiel's vision was of the church, or was of the replacement temple God expected to be built with Cyrus' blessing, or was of a temple to be built immediately before the great tribulation, or was of the temple in the heavenlies, or was of a temple to be built after Jesus' return - making such assertions are not supporting evidence. They are just assertions.
We each think one or other these options is most likely true, but if we wish to persuade others, we need to supply a preponderance of evidence in support of that view that the persuadee needs to agree is a preponderance. It doesn't matter to me what people believe on this question, but it's an interesting question to think through. Old Testament personnel reporting what the rebuilt temple was to the Jews, is not evidence that they were building what God actually wanted built. I don't know of any place in scripture where the Jews asked God what design he wanted built. Or where they asked the prophets whether God wanted Ezekiel's vision built, or a reconstruction of the Davidic-Solomonic design. I do think that the Ezekiel design is representative of the church, but I suspect that God would have preferred the Jews build a temple whose design closely represented the anticipated New covenant relationship between God and His people, as the wilderness tabernacle closely represented the anticipated Old Covenant relationship between God and His people.