Understanding God’s election

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rogerg

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2 Timothy 1 verse 9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.
Sorry to keep giving you so many "winner", Magenta, but I just can't help myself - you keep nailing it.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Sorry to keep giving you so many "winner", Magenta, but I just can't help myself - you keep nailing it.
To the glory of God and the praise of His glory, thank you, Roger!


Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
 

Rufus

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The "those in Christ":

[1Co 30 KJV)
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




The "what was predestinated":

[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[Eph 1:5 NIV] 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
[Eph 1:5 ESV] 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
This cannot possibly be! Ain't "us" a personal pronoun? Even if it is, this is a very easy fix for GWH. He turns a personal pronoun into an impersonal one -- and voila! The problem magically disappears. This is what FWers do to Rom 8:29. They turn "those" or "whom" in this verse into "what" -- an inanimate, impersonal thing!
 

Inquisitor

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So...things are predestined but not people themselves?
In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.

Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.
 

Inquisitor

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No, I attend a church that consists mostly of lIKE-MINDED brothers and sisters who love God's Truth. My bible tells me that if you have the love of God in your soul, that love will rejoice in the truth. Rather, you rail against it. You fight against it. You oppose it! you deny it! You cannot even accept what is explictly written in scripture! Your only interest, so it seems, is to twist God's Word to fit into your personal, pet theological presuppositions.
Romans 9-11, is nothing more than the narration of the failure of Israel, end of story.

You need to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, Rufus, and avoid defending an unsound interpretation.
 

Rufus

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In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.


Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.
First of all, you omit 3 other individuals. What happened to Ishmael, Issac and Pharaoh?

Also, how we can know for certain that Paul clearly had individuals in mind is by his division of two kinds of Abrhamic descendants: One group of descendants were related to Abraham only by natural descent; whereas the other group of individual Jews were related to Abraham by virtue of God's promise, being called "children of promise"! The former group were not God's children, whereas the latter were! This means that Ishmael and Esau were excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant, since they were not the true Israel.
 

Rufus

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Romans 9-11, is nothing more than the narration of the failure of Israel, end of story.

You need to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, Rufus, and avoid defending an unsound interpretation.
IOW, you cannot believe your lying eyes and how Rom 9:6 reads which is about why God's Word has not failed. There's nothing about Israel's failure in the verse, since at the end of the day, man's eternal destiny is in God's hands, which Paul clearly understood. Don't you know, yet, that man's ways are NOT in himself!?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.

Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.
 
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In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.

Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.

22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.

23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).

24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.

25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.

26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.

27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.

28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).

29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).

30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

42. Romans 11:33-36 concludes Paul’s development of the DOE by acknowledging that God’s mind is unknowable beyond what He reveals.
 

Rufus

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19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
Another lie from the pit of hell! The passage does not say that God loves the ungodly! It says just the opposite!

Rom 5:6-11
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for US in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
NIV

Who is the "we" in v. 6 and the "us" in v.8: the ungodly!? Are the ungodly of the world the original audience to whom Paul wrote? Or is Paul saying that when the elect were (past tense!) still helpless (powerless) and in their ungodly condition Christ died died for them? And that God [now, presently] demonstrates his own love for US -- his saints! It's one thing for God to decree in eternity the elect's eternal destiny, but something else again for Him to have actually demonstrated his love for his chosen people in space and time, which He did when he sent Jesus into this ungodly world.

And how come you have no commentary on v.6? How were the ungodly helpless (powerless)? I thought every single human being was endowed by God with an all powerful "freewill" that can perform wonders that even God himself cannot do, such as make choices contrary to our nature, or choose to raise ourselves from the dead, etc. So, explain how such people with powerful "freewills" are helpless?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Another lie from the pit of hell! The passage does not say that God loves the ungodly! It says just the opposite!

Rom 5:6-11
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for US in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
NIV

Who is the "we" in v. 6 and the "us" in v.8: the ungodly!? Are the ungodly of the world the original audience to whom Paul wrote? Or is Paul saying that when the elect were (past tense!) still helpless (powerless) and in their ungodly condition Christ died died for them? And that God [now, presently] demonstrates his own love for US -- his saints! It's one thing for God to decree in eternity the elect's eternal destiny, but something else again for Him to have actually demonstrated his love for his chosen people in space and time, which He did when he sent Jesus into this ungodly world.

And how come you have no commentary on v.6? How were the ungodly helpless (powerless)? I thought every single human being was endowed by God with an all powerful "freewill" that can perform wonders that even God himself cannot do, such as make choices contrary to our nature, or choose to raise ourselves from the dead, etc. So, explain how such people with powerful "freewills" are helpless?
Re "So, explain how such people with powerful "freewills" are helpless?"

Just look in the mirror.
 

Inquisitor

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First of all, you omit 3 other individuals. What happened to Ishmael, Issac and Pharaoh?

Also, how we can know for certain that Paul clearly had individuals in mind is by his division of two kinds of Abrhamic descendants: One group of descendants were related to Abraham only by natural descent; whereas the other group of individual Jews were related to Abraham by virtue of God's promise, being called "children of promise"! The former group were not God's children, whereas the latter were! This means that Ishmael and Esau were excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant, since they were not the true Israel.
You have committed an error.

One group of descendants were related to Abraham only by natural descent; whereas the other group of individual Jews were related to Abraham by virtue of God's promise, being called "children of promise"!

Both groups were direct natural descendants of Abraham.

Both Ishmael and Isaac were direct natural descendants of Abraham.

Then Jacob and Esau were direct descendants of Abraham through Sarah and Rebekah.

As we continue on, Judah was the chosen of Jacob's descendants but Jacob's brothers were not.

There all natural descendants but God is selecting a specific natural lineage in Abraham's seed.

This is not about God choosing folk for salvation; it's the royal lineage of the Christ (The Promised One).
 

Inquisitor

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IOW, you cannot believe your lying eyes and how Rom 9:6 reads which is about why God's Word has not failed. There's nothing about Israel's failure in the verse, since at the end of the day, man's eternal destiny is in God's hands, which Paul clearly understood. Don't you know, yet, that man's ways are NOT in himself!?
I don't think my eye's are lying, after all, Romans 9 is easy to read.

Romans 9:25
As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people".

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness,
even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

You have been deceived, Rufus.

The lineage your referring to is the lineage of the Christ.

That lineage becomes a very narrow lineage after King David.

Following that lineage to Mary is an incredibly small remnant of Israel.

The lineage in Romans 9 is Christ's lineage.
 

Rufus

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I don't think my eye's are lying, after all, Romans 9 is easy to read.

Romans 9:25
As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people".

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness,
even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

You have been deceived, Rufus.

The lineage your referring to is the lineage of the Christ.

That lineage becomes a very narrow lineage after King David.

Following that lineage to Mary is an incredibly small remnant of Israel.

The lineage in Romans 9 is Christ's lineage.
There is NO messianic lineage in Rom 9. You're eyes are lying to you! The focus is on Abraham's descendants, save for Pharaoh of course! Two of them were "children of promise" and, therefore, "children of GOD"! The other two were mere physical descendants of Abraham, and they were rejected and not included in the Abrahamic Covenant, thus not God's children. But you are right that Rom 9 is an "easy read" to those who are not blinded by their assumptions and presuppositions.
 

Rufus

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You have committed an error.

One group of descendants were related to Abraham only by natural descent; whereas the other group of individual Jews were related to Abraham by virtue of God's promise, being called "children of promise"!

Both groups were direct natural descendants of Abraham.

Both Ishmael and Isaac were direct natural descendants of Abraham.

Then Jacob and Esau were direct descendants of Abraham through Sarah and Rebekah.

As we continue on, Judah was the chosen of Jacob's descendants but Jacob's brothers were not.

There all natural descendants but God is selecting a specific natural lineage in Abraham's seed.

This is not about God choosing folk for salvation; it's the royal lineage of the Christ (The Promised One).
No kidding, Dick Tracy! But only the CHILDREN OF PROMISE are the true Israel. What part v. 6 can't you understand? :rolleyes: