Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?

[Intersection]

The blood of Christ never atones for those who are not the elect.

 

[Mem]

As I go over the arguments, the very real possibility occurs to me that while Christ atones for the sins of the world, only belief atones would unbelief considering what belief necessarily requires (influenced by my 40 stripes minus one contemplation).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

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[reneweddaybyday]

As I go over the arguments, the very real possibility occurs to me that while Christ atones for the sins of the world, only belief atones would unbelief considering what belief necessarily requires (influenced by my 40 stripes minus one contemplation).

your 40 stripes minus 1 contemplation was very thought provoking ...
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[Mem]

your 40 stripes minus 1 contemplation was very thought provoking ...
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Thank you, so much, for that! I see there's about 2 and some fraction of hours between your reply and my posting and I had just signed in when I saw the 1-minute old notification it. And then, after a minute of taking my wonderment of that (I don't believe there are any such thing as coincidence), and as soon as I thought to reply on it, the site went down. So, I took it as a wink from the Spirit's "Amen," and the adversary throwing the characteristic fit especially because of that perfectly timed 'coincidence.'

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Thank you, so much, for that! I see there's about 2 and some fraction of hours between your reply and my posting and I had just signed in when I saw the 1-minute old notification it. And then, after a minute of taking my wonderment of that (I don't believe there are any such thing as coincidence), and as soon as I thought to reply on it, the site went down. So, I took it as a wink from the Spirit's "Amen," and the adversary throwing the characteristic fit especially because of that perfectly timed 'coincidence.'

I was taught that the reason they gave 40 stripes save 1 was because if the person who was meting out the stripes miscounted and gave more than 40, it would dishonor his brother.

Deuteronomy 25:

1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.

3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

vs 2 – the judge determined the number "according to his fault" ... and the judgment would be meted out before the judge.

vs 3 – 40 stripes was the maximum penalty ... and if 40 was exceeded, that would dishonor the one at fault.

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[Mem]

I was taught that the reason they gave 40 stripes save 1 was because if the person who was meting out the stripes miscounted and gave more than 40, it would dishonor his brother.

Deuteronomy 25:

1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.

3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

vs 2 – the judge determined the number "according to his fault" ... and the judgment would be meted out before the judge.

vs 3 – 40 stripes was the maximum penalty ... and if 40 was exceeded, that would dishonor the one at fault.

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It seemed intuitive to me that 40 was the "full" penalty but it also seemed only to be an assumption, until now. Thank you.

 

[brightfame52]

As I go over the arguments, the very real possibility occurs to me that while Christ atones for the sins of the world, only belief atones would unbelief considering what belief necessarily requires (influenced by my 40 stripes minus one contemplation).

Are you saying mans belief atones for unbelief, and not Christs atoning death ? Just asking

 

[Mem]

Are you saying mans belief atones for unbelief, and not Christs atoning death ? Just asking

Not exactly, but it's hard to define spiritual realities other than in shadows, or as "through a glass darkly." As in the temple system of atonement, the 'sinner' had to place his hand upon the head of the sacrificial animal that thereby 'takes upon' his sin before it is offered on the alter. If he refuses to do that then, even if the lamb is slain, his sin remains upon him.

 

[brightfame52]

Not exactly, but it's hard to define spiritual realities other than in shadows, or as "through a glass darkly." As in the temple system of atonement, the 'sinner' had to place his hand upon the head of the sacrificial animal that thereby 'takes upon' his sin before it is offered on the alter. If he refuses to do that then, even if the lamb is slain, his sin remains upon him.

Well Jesus did atone for the sin of unbelief/disobedience for the elect, thats why they were reconciled to God by His death while they were unbelieving enemies, and ensured of further saving. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So unbelief was atoned for

 

[Mem]

Well Jesus did atone for the sin of unbelief/disobedience for the elect, thats why they were reconciled to God by His death while they were unbelieving enemies, and ensured of further saving. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So unbelief was atoned for

Atoned for once and for all, yes. I know you don't believe that faith is a requirement for the application of atonement. 'Whomsoever (faithfully) believes' is the explicit declaration of who faithfully is atoned for. There's no fine print of exceptions.

 

[brightfame52]

Atoned for once and for all, yes. I know you don't believe that faith is a requirement for the application of atonement. 'Whomsoever (faithfully) believes' is the explicit declaration of who faithfully is atoned for. There's no fine print of exceptions.

No He atoned for them only whom He reconciled by His death and who shall be saved by His life as it says in Rom 5:10

 

[Mem]

No He atoned for them only whom He reconciled by His death and who shall be saved by His life as it says in Rom 5:10

You're conscious is seared as someone mentioned repeatedly denying the truth is bound to do.

 

[Mem]

I don't clearly recall if I might've read it here or heard it elsewhere someone's mention of a reluctance to continue to offer the gospel (repeatedly to someone) for the risk of giving more opportunity to reject the gospel and thereby sear their conscience against the good news by continually rejecting it. It occurred to me that these debates are an excellent example of exactly that happening.

 

[brightfame52]

You're conscious is seared as someone mentioned repeatedly denying the truth is bound to do.

See He died for their unbelief as sin so they can and do believe as evidence He died for their sins, however if one dies in their sins to include the sin of unbelief, then He didnt die for their sins as He speaks Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus says later why they believe not Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He specifically stated He laid down His Life for the Sheep, so they will believe since their sins are atoned for Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now if Christ didnt die for your sins, you cant believe in Him because you owe obedience to the law and it condemns you.

 

[Mem]

See He died for their unbelief as sin so they can and do believe as evidence He died for their sins, however if one dies in their sins to include the sin of unbelief, then He didnt die for their sins as He speaks Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus says later why they believe not Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He specifically stated He laid down His Life for the Sheep, so they will believe since their sins are atoned for Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now if Christ didnt die for your sins, you cant believe in Him because you owe obedience to the law and it condemns you.

There's that "if" again. Jesus Himself clarified the condition 'if ye believe not' and followed up with His all-knowing assessment, "ye believe not.' He added nothing saying, 'because God would not have you believe."

 

[brightfame52]

There's that "if" again. Jesus Himself clarified the condition 'if ye believe not' and followed up with His all-knowing assessment, "ye believe not.' He added nothing saying, 'because God would not have you believe."

Jesus died for the elects unbelief. Therefore God has mercy on their unbelief. Paul is an example of how God has mercy on the elect even for unbelief 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus had mercy on him in all his hate and unbelief, and gave him Faith and Love towards Him, thats because He died for sauls sins and unbelief.