I asked AI, "Are heretics part of the Elect?"

[Intersection]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

 

[Burn1986]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

Heretics are known as Predestination whacks.

 

[kqr_anointed]

Heretics are known as Predestination whacks.

agreed on this wow

 

[HeIsHere]

Heretics are known as Predestination whacks.

Good one! Made me laugh!

 

[GWH]

Some Scripture may seem to suggest that God elects a few sinners to salvation, but NOT that God damns most souls to hell.
And most of GW clearly indicates that God makes it possible for all sinners to be saved by not resisting His enabling grace.

Acts 16:31
Rom 3:21-22,
1Cor. 1:17,
2Cor. 5:7, 13:5,
Gal. 1:6-9, 2:16,
Eph. 2:8-10,
Phil. 1:29, 2:9-11,
Col. 1:3-4, 2:16-17,
1Thes. 1:2-8, 3:6-8,
2Thes. 1:3-4, 2:13-14,
1Tim. 1:3-7, 4:1 & 10, 6:11-12,
2Tim. 1:5, 2:22-26,
Tit. 1:1 & 10, 2:1-2, 3:4-7,
Philemon 1:4-5,
Heb. 3:12-19

teach "IF"!

 

[Howdy]

All men are sinners. Some are saved, some are not.
Most if not all have some beliefs that are heresy.
Many of the post on this site are evidence of that.
But I do not see where a saved person could knowingly teach heresy.

 

[SonJudgment]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

The AI is basically correct though it doesn't factor in pernicion. As I had posted in another thread about the subject of heresy. The two main factors in judging heresy are pernicion and obstinacy. Pernicion is how damnable or severe or damaging the heresy is. Obstinacy is like the AI says here in distinguishing between a Formal or Material Heretic, essentially obstinacy is how much they actually believe in the heresy, and how much they are willing to accept the truth of God. The AI also does well showing that there's also some differing approaches to heresy, though all the mainline denominations use the basic framework of judging heresy and heretics by the factors of obstinacy and pernicion, though they might use some updated terminology for it, it is in essence this same central point. Therefore to the overall question it is an obvious, no. There is no heretic that is of the elect, though if they are low of obstinacy there is a chance that they will repent of heresy and accept the truth. As always the Athanasian Creed is the most powerful Creed to study and understand both in the judgment of the heretics and in strengthening oneself in the true doctrine of the pure religion of Christianity by which is the only means to ever be saved, praise Jesus.

 

[GWH]

All men are sinners. Some are saved, some are not.
Most if not all have some beliefs that are heresy.
Many of the post on this site are evidence of that.
But I do not see where a saved person could knowingly teach heresy.

Yes, because only belief in Jesus as Messiah and Lord should be viewed as essential for being a Christian. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” And also in Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (Luke 2:11) or God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (Matt. 7:21, Eph. 5:8-10).

Judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).

 

[DavidLamb]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

I wonder why you asked Artificial Intelligence such a question. Hopefully not because you weren't sure of the answer you find in God's word.

 

[GWH]

I wonder why you asked Artificial Intelligence such a question. Hopefully not because you weren't sure of the answer you find in God's word.

I wonder who programs AI, because its answer was as aligned with GW as the answers Christians would give.

 

[rrcn]

I appears that the AI is describing the unpardonable sin.

Here is what Jesus said when confronting the Pharisees when they accused him of healing by the power of the devil:

[Mat 12:30-32 KJV] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[Mar 3:28-30 KJV] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.


For those who may be interested in a thorough explanation I think this one will be helpful.

 

[Adstar]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

I would never trust anything coming out of an AI app...

 

[GWH]

I would never trust anything coming out of an AI app...

It depends on who programmed it, but test everything (1Thes. 5:21).

 

[Burn1986]

Some Scripture may seem to suggest that God elects a few sinners to salvation, but NOT that God damns most souls to hell.
And most of GW clearly indicates that God makes it possible for all sinners to be saved by not resisting His enabling grace.

Acts 16:31
Rom 3:21-22,
1Cor. 1:17,
2Cor. 5:7, 13:5,
Gal. 1:6-9, 2:16,
Eph. 2:8-10,
Phil. 1:29, 2:9-11,
Col. 1:3-4, 2:16-17,
1Thes. 1:2-8, 3:6-8,
2Thes. 1:3-4, 2:13-14,
1Tim. 1:3-7, 4:1 & 10, 6:11-12,
2Tim. 1:5, 2:22-26,
Tit. 1:1 & 10, 2:1-2, 3:4-7,
Philemon 1:4-5,
Heb. 3:12-19

teach "IF"!

So which Israelites that came out of Egypt were chosen?

 

[GWH]

So which Israelites that came out of Egypt were chosen?

Not very many chose to persevere per Hebrews 3.

 

[Burn1986]

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&sca_esv=eb0cac4296cf792a&sxsrf=AE3TifM2lwNoHDir369pLRzbJoOS-dhVMw:1753055559652&ei=R4F9aLmjJ9yGw8cP5PzAgQE&ved=0ahUKEwj54p3v0MyOAxVcw_ACHWQ-MBAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=are+heretics+part+of+the+elect&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmFyZSBoZXJldGljcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBlbGVjdDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQUyBRAAGO8FSMU_UABYszpwAHgBkAEAmAF-oAHNDqoBBDEwLjm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhOgArcQwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQABiABBgNwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICChAhGKABGMMEGArCAggQIRigARjDBJgDAJIHBDQuMTWgB7dMsgcENC4xNbgHtxDCBwgyLTEzLjIuNMgHrgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview

In Christianity, heretics are generally not considered part of the elect, particularly those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heretical doctrines. The concept of the "elect" refers to those chosen by God for salvation, and heresy is seen as a deviation from true Christian doctrine, often leading to a rejection of God's grace. While some might argue that individuals who are material heretics (not fully aware of their error) might still be part of the elect, those who knowingly and obstinately embrace heresy are typically seen as outside the realm of salvation.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Heresy and the Elect:
  Heresy, derived from the Greek word meaning "choice," involves choosing a doctrine that contradicts established Christian teaching. The concept of the elect, on the other hand, is rooted in the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before they are even born.
  
  
• Formal vs. Material Heresy:
  A key distinction is made between formal and material heresy. Formal heretics are those who knowingly and deliberately reject Church teaching. Material heretics are those who, due to ignorance or misunderstanding, hold beliefs that are considered heretical but without the intent to contradict Church doctrine.
  
  
• The Church's View:
  The Catholic Church, for example, considers those who knowingly and persistently adhere to heresy as outside the Church and not part of the elect. The Church sees its role as safeguarding the true faith and considers heresy a grave error that can lead to spiritual ruin.
  
  
• Different Perspectives:
  Some Protestant denominations, particularly those with Calvinist theology, might hold a more strict view, believing that God has predetermined who will be saved and that heresy is a sign that a person was never truly among the elect. Other Protestant denominations might be more open to the possibility of salvation for those who have been misled by heresy.
  
  
• Importance of Repentance:
  Regardless of the specific theological perspective, most Christian traditions emphasize the importance of repentance and returning to the true faith. For formal heretics, this means renouncing their false beliefs and embracing orthodox Christian doctrine.

You need to get saved. Dear Lord.

 

[Burn1986]

Not very many chose to persevere per Hebrews 3.

They had a choice of die or trust Moses. Then many died in the wilderness because of unbelief (we know the story). Were they all elect? What role did election play in those that died in the wilderness?

 

[Dino246]

Heretics are known as Predestination whacks.

Had you reversed the order of nouns, you might have a point. As it is, you just have a meaningless generalization that is indistinguishable from incoherent ranting.

 

[Burn1986]

Had you reversed the order of nouns, you might have a point. As it is, you just have a meaningless generalization that is indistinguishable from incoherent ranting.

So what. These guys are stupid.

 

[GWH]

They had a choice of die or trust Moses. Then many died in the wilderness because of unbelief (we know the story). Were they all elect? What role did election play in those that died in the wilderness?

Well, their choice regarding salvation was to believe/obey God or not, and Hebrews 3:12-19 warns us of the need to persevere.