A call for unity and love

[Jordon]

There's many reason why God does thing my friend @Blain we cant always know fully why.

But we can look to other scripture, Jesus at the last supper said one of you will betray me,.

How did he know.

Then we come to God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished in the future.

We can't say that none of those bad people would not have been given a choice at some point seeing as we see many incidents where God does give people a choice.

But really friend you have to believe that God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished means everyone friend which includes people who have not yet been born, also friend I can't believe God would just show John a vision of imaginary souls, do you ?

I'm sure you wouldn't

There's absolutely no way I can believe God does not know a person future, and even before there born.

 

[Blain]

There's many reason why God does thing my friend @Blain we cant always know fully why.

But we can look to other scripture, Jesus at the last supper said one of you will betray me,.

How did he know.

Then we come to God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished in the future.

We can't say that none of those bad people would not have been given a choice at some point seeing as we see many incidents where God does give people a choice.

But really friend you have to believe that God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished means everyone friend which includes people who have not yet been born, also friend I can't believe God would just show John a vision of imaginary souls, do you ?

I'm sure you wouldn't

There's absolutely no way I can believe God does not know a person future, and even before there born.

Yes he certainly does know a persons future even from before they are born but he gives choices to people as well and the mere fact he does that well there has to be a reason for it if one was to look at all the times he gave someone a choice it shows that even knowing their choice before hand he still leaves room for the will of a person.

It would make sense if he gave a choice if free will had something to do with it but if free will truly is just an illusion then it wouldn't make sense if he gave us a choice. of course maybe I am overthinking this but it just confuses me why he gave a choice for adam and eve and cain if in fact free will doesn't really exist

 

[Jordon]

Yes he certainly does know a persons future even from before they are born but he gives choices to people as well and the mere fact he does that well there has to be a reason for it if one was to look at all the times he gave someone a choice it shows that even knowing their choice before hand he still leaves room for the will of a person.

It would make sense if he gave a choice if free will had something to do with it but if free will truly is just an illusion then it wouldn't make sense if he gave us a choice. of course maybe I am overthinking this but it just confuses me why he gave a choice for adam and eve and cain if in fact free will doesn't really exist

I believe also that really he likes to know all our futures because really man's own free will or self determination as I see it, really does need protecting .

There's no point in us fully trying to understand it, we just have to believe it's true first most.

But why give someone a choice on the basis God allows Freedom of choice, I think your asking if God allows Free will and free choice why does he give a choice.

I feal that this isn't a good line of thinking friend, I'm not sure who's idea this is, but really the choices he gives must also be down to his free will yes

 

[GWH]

oh sorry I've just realised I quoted the wrong person in post 191, i was meant to be quoting mr GHW ,post 191 192 193 was meant for him sorry not you my friend,

Bye for now, blessings

Jordon, I see that you said the following was for me to reply:

1. Some people will believe all sorts of things because they heard one bad thing said about something.
If you can't believe God doesn't know what a person can do before he exists then I have to ask are you God ?
2. But I'm asking if your God because all tho you quote it's what other people believe it sounds like your saying
I know for sure that's not true.
3. Maybe you should look to the bible where God showed someone the future.
4. Also if you can't believe in what your quoting then you have to disbelieve what I'm asking.
I'll give you a clue it was something shown to John in revelation. Bye for now. Blessings.

I don't see how your posts correspond to what I had said, which was that "God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.
1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated.

I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation.
Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation."

However, I will reply as well as I can as follows:
1. The thing I have heard some people ask is whether God can create a rock too large for Him to move, which is a logical absurdity akin to asking whether God can disown Himself or not be God, and thus the answer is NO without meaning He is not omnipotent.

2. I often quote from a website I have created for everyone to use as a resource <truthseekersfellowship.com>, in this case Lesson 1,
and I never claim anyone knows anything for sure, because I believe Paul's teaching in 2Cor. 5:7 that "we walk by faith, not by sight".

3. Maybe you should note that I cited 16 Bible passages in my post, whereas you cited none. Then note that I said "Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2)."

4. Not sure what you were saying well enough to reply specifically, so instead I will explain that the reason I say "if believing God knows what a person will be/do is correct", is because that belief may be in the category of absurdity. However, if it is not absurd, then the reason I say "it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation" is because I am quite confident that being created in God's image means having moral free will (MFW) as illustrated by A&E's original ability either to obey God or to believe the devil and eat the forbidden fruit.

Over...

 

[Jordon]

Jordon, I see that you said the following was for me to reply:

1. Some people will believe all sorts of things because they heard one bad thing said about something.
If you can't believe God doesn't know what a person can do before he exists then I have to ask are you God ?
2. But I'm asking if your God because all tho you quote it's what other people believe it sounds like your saying
I know for sure that's not true.
3. Maybe you should look to the bible where God showed someone the future.
4. Also if you can't believe in what your quoting then you have to disbelieve what I'm asking.
I'll give you a clue it was something shown to John in revelation. Bye for now. Blessings.

I don't see how your posts correspond to what I had said, which was that "God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.
1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated.

I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation.
Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct, it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation."

However, I will reply as well as I can as follows:
1. The thing I have heard some people ask is whether God can create a rock too large for Him to move, which is a logical absurdity akin to asking whether God can disown Himself or not be God, and thus the answer is NO without meaning He is not omnipotent.

2. I often quote from a website I have created for everyone to use as a resource <truthseekersfellowship.com>, in this case Lesson 1,
and I never claim anyone knows anything for sure, because I believe Paul's teaching in 2Cor. 5:7 that "we walk by faith, not by sight".

3. Maybe you should note that I cited 16 Bible passages in my post, whereas you cited none. Then note that I said "Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2)."

4. Not sure what you were saying well enough to reply specifically, so instead I will explain that the reason I say "if believing God knows what a person will be/do is correct", is because that belief may be in the category of absurdity. However, if it is not absurd, then the reason I say "it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation" is because I am quite confident that being created in God's image means having moral free will (MFW) as illustrated by A&E's original ability either to obey God or to believe the devil and eat the forbidden fruit.

Over...

ok

 

[Blain]

Hello @Jordon I was wondering something are you struggling with something right now? I had a dream about you last night I saw your name and what appeared to be two beings wrestling and I can only interpret it as you wrestling or struggling with something

 

[GWH]

ok

I hope "ok" means you understand my understanding of God's omnipotence/omniscience and find it agreeable enough;
and that you think my opinions regarding how God's foreknowledge may work to allow the MFW He created to operate are
sufficiently reasonable, and I hope you are edified by the insight I shared about atheists' absurd accusations.

 

[Ceph]

I think you guys are thinking too flat about this.
God gave people to be living souls who love each other, because Gods perpetual and boundless delight is the existence of spirits who do good and love each other and him.

In order to be alive, one must have their own point of view, which consists of a life to reflect on, a contemplation of the present, a wonder of the future and for things unseen, and a curiosity of all things combined.
The existence of 'life' itself is the pinnacle of Gods power and magesty in his worksmanship.
We are not wood or stones that do nothing, nor funiture which only serves an idle purpose, nor machines which only perform finite tasks; they have absolutely none of those things.

We are all different, with our own niches, abilities, experiences, caveats, thought processes, imaginations, dreams, natures, and ideas about what aught to be what.
Yet in spite of these differences, in spite of every difficulty we face we each srive for the same warmth, the same light, the same hopes, the same mutual freindship towards each other's agencies.
We all strive to trust. We all strive to love. We all have feelings. Now what are trust and love in themselves? Who can compute a feeling? They are majestic, incomprehensible things that no one can measure. But we posses them and apply them everywhere in our existence, as us being alive gives us diminion over them.

Think of God, who is the source of that, and manages billions of spirits simultaniously who do that in all kinds of different ways from all kinds of perspectives.
Now, think of a spirit who doesn't consider any of this; in spite of their experiences, in spite of their emotions, in spite of what they know about themselves, they refuse to not only so much as hope another person may have at least as much good as them, but are willing to take from those who have less only to breifly make themselves more comfortable in the flesh.
Terrorists and criminals thurougly plan out and agree to do the things they do. Whether it be foolish or ingenious, they put others at risk and only consider their own gain. They see the effects they have on other people, the very image of themselves, and follow through. They know how they would feel if they were them. How else do torturers search out the ways to inflict pain?
A mere incidence of disobediance isn't the same as that. Even innocent people have forsaken the things they thought they've loved. But they still recognise that others are just as alive as them, and they persue the spiritual gains of peace and joy among people more than the fleshy gains of pleasure for themselves.

In the end, it's simple; the good practice good, and the evil practice evil. The evil ones know what it takes to be good, but they're dedicated to their cause.
They've shut their eyes to their insolence, and closed their minds to their foolishness. Just like satan who rebelled despite his gifts, the evil live a lifetime of lashing out over their freedom.

 

[Jordon]

Hello @Jordon I was wondering something are you struggling with something right now? I had a dream about you last night I saw your name and what appeared to be two beings wrestling and I can only interpret it as you wrestling or struggling with something

Can't say that I am friend I cope pretty well, you must have just been thinking about our discussion just before you fell asleep, which made you dream your dream, it sounds like you've been concerned about me,

There's no need I'm ok thanks, but thanks for your concerns.

Bye for now.

 

[Jordon]

I hope "ok" means you understand my understanding of God's omnipotence/omniscience and find it agreeable enough;
and that you think my opinions regarding how God's foreknowledge may work to allow the MFW He created to operate are
sufficiently reasonable, and I hope you are edified by the insight I shared about atheists' absurd accusations.

His foreknowledge will work in ways no one will ever be able to experience

 

[GWH]

I think you guys are thinking too flat about this.
God gave people to be living souls who love each other, because Gods perpetual and boundless delight is the existence of spirits who do good and love each other and him.

In order to be alive, one must have their own point of view, which consists of a life to reflect on, a contemplation of the present, a wonder of the future and for things unseen, and a curiosity of all things combined.
The existence of 'life' itself is the pinnacle of Gods power and magesty in his worksmanship.
We are not wood or stones that do nothing, nor funiture which only serves an idle purpose, nor machines which only perform finite tasks; they have absolutely none of those things.

We are all different, with our own niches, abilities, experiences, caveats, thought processes, imaginations, dreams, natures, and ideas about what aught to be what.
Yet in spite of these differences, in spite of every difficulty we face we each srive for the same warmth, the same light, the same hopes, the same mutual freindship towards each other's agencies.
We all strive to trust. We all strive to love. We all have feelings. Now what are trust and love in themselves? Who can compute a feeling? They are majestic, incomprehensible things that no one can measure. But we posses them and apply them everywhere in our existence, as us being alive gives us diminion over them.

Think of God, who is the source of that, and manages billions of spirits simultaniously who do that in all kinds of different ways from all kinds of perspectives.
Now, think of a spirit who doesn't consider any of this; in spite of their experiences, in spite of their emotions, in spite of what they know about themselves, they refuse to not only so much as hope another person may have at least as much good as them, but are willing to take from those who have less only to breifly make themselves more comfortable in the flesh.
Terrorists and criminals thurougly plan out and agree to do the things they do. Whether it be foolish or ingenious, they put others at risk and only consider their own gain. They see the effects they have on other people, the very image of themselves, and follow through. They know how they would feel if they were them. How else do torturers search out the ways to inflict pain?
A mere incidence of disobediance isn't the same as that. Even innocent people have forsaken the things they thought they've loved. But they still recognise that others are just as alive as them, and they persue the spiritual gains of peace and joy among people more than the fleshy gains of pleasure for themselves.

In the end, it's simple; the good practice good, and the evil practice evil. The evil ones know what it takes to be good, but they're dedicated to their cause.
They've shut their eyes to their insolence, and closed their minds to their foolishness. Just like satan who rebelled despite his gifts, the evil live a lifetime of lashing out over their freedom.

Yes, it is simple: God is good and has a loving nature and moral will, and humans may cooperate with His will--or not,
reaping either heaven or hell as the just destiny and logical consequence of their choice (Romans 2:6-11, Gal. 6:7-10).

 

[GWH]

His foreknowledge will work in ways no one will ever be able to experience

Yes, or understand. However, as we learn GW our understanding increases. For example,
Do you understand how God created and sustains MFW? (I didn't at 20 but think I do now :^)

 

[Blain]

Can't say that I am friend I cope pretty well, you must have just been thinking about our discussion just before you fell asleep, which made you dream your dream, it sounds like you've been concerned about me,

There's no need I'm ok thanks, but thanks for your concerns.

Bye for now.

Ok good glad to hear it

 

[Jordon]

Yes, or understand. However, as we learn GW our understanding increases. For example,
Do you understand how God created and sustains MFW? (I didn't at 20 but think I do now :^)

I would favour devine power of his will

 

[GWH]

I would favour devine power of his will

His will/power is what created and sustains MFW, but here is a logical-biblical rationale as to how it is done:

A person might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap (unconditionally elect) ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (Matt. 27:46, Psa. 51:11)

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

 

[Jordon]

His will/power is what created and sustains MFW, but here is a logical-biblical rationale as to how it is done:

A person might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap (unconditionally elect) ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (Matt. 27:46, Psa. 51:11)

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

Theres still the possibility that evil is a reflection of God's light, and there also much that we will not know untill God brings a new earth and walks amongst his people.

If we look at evil being a reflection of Gods light, can we say without God's light would it be there ?, well i would say no, but can we then say God created it.

Well i would say not completely he did no, in the beginning was the light then God said let there be light, was this when evil came to be, I would say evil came into existence and not something God created. It is a reflection of Gods light where by a soul can step into and reject it's own light it came from, i know the scriptures I the lord Gid created calamity, but did he completely ? I think this is where it goes over people's heads.

Moral free will it sounds nice and lovely, but it's still self determination, which really means you can choose but still no persons can choose whether God will save them, that simply Doen to God you can ask which is lovely to but it will still be down to how well he foreknew knew..

It's not something you can truly grasp with a human mind but knowing That God knows all things and knowing that God knows everything from the beginning to the end he knows who are his children before there even born.

So in the here and now some people may never hear from God, because God already knows that person and his whole life because God knows everyone's future.

So simply put if your not predestined to be saved you never will be.

But here's the thing friend, all this talk and beliefs that we all have, should not be based upon disagreements with other denominations really, I myself think it's highly foolish to doubt God's word because of a particular denomination or s doctrine a person doesn't like, or doubting God's word to settle and argument,. Indeed this happens when arguments don't get out to bed.

Peace and grace to you friend

 

[GWH]

Theres still the possibility that evil is a reflection of God's light, and there also much that we will not know untill God brings a new earth and walks amongst his people.

If we look at evil being a reflection of Gods light, can we say without God's light would it be there ?, well i would say no, but can we then say God created it.

Well i would say not completely he did no, in the beginning was the light then God said let there be light, was this when evil came to be, I would say evil came into existence and not something God created. It is a reflection of Gods light where by a soul can step into and reject it's own light it came from, i know the scriptures I the lord Gid created calamity, but did he completely ? I think this is where it goes over people's heads.

Moral free will it sounds nice and lovely, but it's still self determination, which really means you can choose but still no persons can choose whether God will save them, that simply Doen to God you can ask which is lovely to but it will still be down to how well he foreknew knew..

It's not something you can truly grasp with a human mind but knowing That God knows all things and knowing that God knows everything from the beginning to the end he knows who are his children before there even born.

So in the here and now some people may never hear from God, because God already knows that person and his whole life because God knows everyone's future.

So simply put if your not predestined to be saved you never will be.

But here's the thing friend, all this talk and beliefs that we all have, should not be based upon disagreements with other denominations really, I myself think it's highly foolish to doubt God's word because of a particular denomination or s doctrine a person doesn't like, or doubting God's word to settle and argument,. Indeed this happens when arguments don't get out to bed.

Peace and grace to you friend

Light in Scripture represents God's glory/goodness, and darkness symbolizes the moral opposite,
which rejects rather than reflects divine light and wants to extinguish it per John 1:1-5. And allowing
darkness to exist as the option that actualizes moral free will or humanness is good/godlikeness,
so we need not be hesitant to ascribe it to God.

And an amazing aspect of saying "Let there be light" (and therefore darkness, as you noted) that many folks deny
because at first it also seems wrong is that MFW reflects God's image or moral nature, indicating that He is free
to do/be evil/hateful although He has promised never to choose that option, which is why He is praiseworthy.

MFW would only be "self" determination if it were created by oneself rather than by God,
but God initiates; souls cooperate--or not. Choosing the option of seeking salvation is enabled by God,
and it is NOT meritorious but merely the condition that makes man accountable and thus justifiably
condemned to hell/darkness when they reject God's Light.

Yes, our finite minds cannot comprehend God/GW completely, and God knows all that is knowable.
However, God's foreknowledge of whom will seek the Light does not determine and thereby excuse
NOT seeking salvation, and what was predestined per Ephesians 1 is that light-seekers will become
like Christ morally throughout their earthly lifetime, culminating with perfection in heaven.

LIC, GWH

 

[Jordon]

Light in Scripture represents God's glory/goodness, and darkness symbolizes the moral opposite,
which rejects rather than reflects divine light and wants to extinguish it per John 1:1-5. And allowing
darkness to exist as the option that actualizes moral free will or humanness is good/godlikeness,
so we need not be hesitant to ascribe it to God.

And an amazing aspect of saying "Let there be light" (and therefore darkness, as you noted) that many folks deny
because at first it also seems wrong is that MFW reflects God's image or moral nature, indicating that He is free
to do/be evil/hateful although He has promised never to choose that option, which is why He is praiseworthy.

MFW would only be "self" determination if it were created by oneself rather than by God,
but God initiates; souls cooperate--or not. Choosing the option of seeking salvation is enabled by God,
and it is NOT meritorious but merely the condition that makes man accountable and thus justifiably
condemned to hell/darkness when they reject God's Light.

Yes, our finite minds cannot comprehend God/GW completely, and God knows all that is knowable.
However, God's foreknowledge of whom will seek the Light does not determine and thereby excuse
NOT seeking salvation, and what was predestined per Ephesians 1 is that light-seekers will become
like Christ morally throughout their earthly lifetime, culminating with perfection in heaven.

LIC, GWH

I'm not sure we can associate the two, in tems of associating morals to free will, to be honest as when we look at morality and morals just about anyone can show Good and bad morals, ( even those not saved). When I think about it, most of Gods morals are founded on his his rules in the Bible, and theres no freedom for those who don't abide in them, all there really is, are people who determine there outcome by abiding in them. This is why I use the word self determination, all tho i should probably call it (self determiñisms)

The main difference between Gods morals and our morals is his will never change,
I'm also a strong believer that up untill the fall of mankind any free will mankind had banished with it.

No longer did mankind have the free will to choose to walk in God's garden.

Sad that this is, it is what it is and we have to accept it.

 

[GWH]

I'm not sure we can associate the two, in tems of associating morals to free will, to be honest as when we look at morality and morals just about anyone can show Good and bad morals, ( even those not saved). When I think about it, most of Gods morals are founded on his his rules in the Bible, and theres no freedom for those who don't abide in them, all there really is, are people who determine there outcome by abiding in them. This is why I use the word self determination, all tho i should probably call it (self determiñisms)

The main difference between Gods morals and our morals is his will never change,
I'm also a strong believer that up untill the fall of mankind any free will mankind had banished with it.

No longer did mankind have the free will to choose to walk in God's garden.

Sad that this is, it is what it is and we have to accept it.

And I understand why you say it is sad that we have to accept God's will,
because as far as I am aware, I am the only person on CC who is sharing this
insight regarding why MFW is good and thus hell is just, which is this:

The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately.
There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating
whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained
for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28).

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.

The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There's many reason why God does thing my friend @Blain we cant always know fully why.

But we can look to other scripture, Jesus at the last supper said one of you will betray me,.

How did he know.

Then we come to God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished in the future.

We can't say that none of those bad people would not have been given a choice at some point seeing as we see many incidents where God does give people a choice.

But really friend you have to believe that God showing John a vision of all the bad people being punished means everyone friend which includes people who have not yet been born, also friend I can't believe God would just show John a vision of imaginary souls, do you ?

I'm sure you wouldn't

There's absolutely no way I can believe God does not know a person future, and even before they’re born.

Yes but knowing something beforhand is different from causing and dictating it against the Will of the subjects . He has foreknowledge indeed that’s biblical