Justification by faith or works?

[Ceph]

It is argued whether people are saved by grace through faith alone or works by faith, and some regard the epistle of James as controversial due to this.
But there is no such thing as faith or works. Works are produced as a natural result of having faith. Remember; “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.” “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Lets review the teachings of Jesus starting from Matthew 5 (A gospel I reccomend everyone reread in whole):
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the gentle,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
“Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
“You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
“You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can’t be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
“Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Therefore, whoever shall break one of these least commandments and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
“You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.
“If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly while you are with him on the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.
“It was also said, ‘Whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce,’ but I tell you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put away commits adultery.
“Again you have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall perform to the Lord your vows,’ but I tell you, don’t swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God; nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Neither shall you swear by your head, for you can’t make one hair white or black. But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No.’ Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors§ do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
“Be careful that you don’t do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Therefore, when you do merciful deeds, don’t sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you do merciful deeds, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand does, so that your merciful deeds may be in secret, then your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
“When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your inner room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. In praying, don’t use vain repetitions as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don’t be like them, for your Father knows what things you need before you ask him. Pray like this:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
Let your Kingdom come.
Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also forgive our debtors.
Bring us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’
“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
“Moreover when you fast, don’t be like the hypocrites, with sad faces. For they disfigure their faces that they may be seen by men to be fasting. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you are not seen by men to be fasting, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

 

[Ceph]

“Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don’t break through and steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can’t serve both God and Mammon. Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn’t life more than food, and the body more than clothing? See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?
“Which of you by being anxious, can add one moment to his lifespan? Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin, yet I tell you that even Solomon in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won’t he much more clothe you, you of little faith?
“Therefore don’t be anxious, saying, ‘What will we eat?’, ‘What will we drink?’ or, ‘With what will we be clothed?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God’s Kingdom and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore don’t be anxious for tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Each day’s own evil is sufficient.
“Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you tell your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.
“Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
“Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. Or who is there among you who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
“Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are few who find it.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’
“Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”

“If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will give to everyone according to his deeds."

 

[Ceph]

Also consider the parable of the talents and sheep/goats:
“For it is like a man going into another country, who called his own servants and entrusted his goods to them. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his own ability. Then he went on his journey. Immediately he who received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. In the same way, he also who got the two gained another two. But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord’s money.
“Now after a long time the lord of those servants came, and settled accounts with them. He who received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents. Behold, I have gained another five talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who got the two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents. Behold, I have gained another two talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things. I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you didn’t sow, and gathering where you didn’t scatter. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I didn’t sow, and gather where I didn’t scatter. You ought therefore to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back my own with interest. Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn’t have, even that which he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If you have faith, you naturally keep these things in mind to fear and walk accordingly by what you're taught.
As you live by your faith, you respond to the things you encounter in life through these teachings, producing works.
Just because you're not 'working' doesn't mean you don't work. Again, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Prayer, love, patience, and all the fruits of the spirit are works when done in faith.

The epistle of James in no way contradicts this; 2:18—Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Confession of Jesus Christ is a work, and by this work faith is shown.

 

[tablet123]

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

If a person does not have love then their faith is no good.

Because they do not have the proper perspective of God's kingdom that it is love.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Anyone that loves money above their needs it is not love and has erred from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said without charity their faith is dead.

Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity the love God does not dwell in them.

And do not love in word only but in deed, works.

For love is valid if it is done in works.

That is why James said a person is justified by works, love, and not faith alone.

For love is greater than faith.

We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

But when we have the Spirit we have to have works of love for our faith to be valid.

Paul and James say the same thing that people who do not have charity their faith is no good.

They misinterpret Paul when he said we are not saved by works and want to carry that throughout their walk with Christ.

But it means when we first confess Christ for we are still in flesh and those works will not cause us to be saved so we are saved by faith.

And then we have to have works of love or we will not be saved.

Millions of people say faith alone but they love money believing the prosperity Gospel

But that is not love then their faith is no good.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.

Some people say faith alone.

But faith is a work for all we do and think is a work.

 

[Ceph]

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

If a person does not have love then their faith is no good.

Because they do not have the proper perspective of God's kingdom that it is love.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Anyone that loves money above their needs it is not love and has erred from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said without charity their faith is dead.

Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said without charity the love God does not dwell in them.

And do not love in word only but in deed, works.

For love is valid if it is done in works.

That is why James said a person is justified by works, love, and not faith alone.

For love is greater than faith.

We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

But when we have the Spirit we have to have works of love for our faith to be valid.

Paul and James say the same thing that people who do not have charity their faith is no good.

They misinterpret Paul when he said we are not saved by works and want to carry that throughout their walk with Christ.

But it means when we first confess Christ for we are still in flesh and those works will not cause us to be saved so we are saved by faith.

And then we have to have works of love or we will not be saved.

Millions of people say faith alone but they love money believing the prosperity Gospel

But that is not love then their faith is no good.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.

Some people say faith alone.

But faith is a work for all we do and think is a work.

Still, there are some people who cannot give charity, by disability or simply lack of occasion, and must rely on their hope from within to carry them.
Works are not greater than faith, as works are justified by faith. "For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Faith comes first before works.
Think about how a beleiver in a country where Christianity is strictly persecuted may be saved.

 

[GWH]

Also consider the parable of the talents and sheep/goats:
“For it is like a man going into another country, who called his own servants and entrusted his goods to them. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his own ability. Then he went on his journey. Immediately he who received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. In the same way, he also who got the two gained another two. But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord’s money.
“Now after a long time the lord of those servants came, and settled accounts with them. He who received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents. Behold, I have gained another five talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who got the two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents. Behold, I have gained another two talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things. I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you didn’t sow, and gathering where you didn’t scatter. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I didn’t sow, and gather where I didn’t scatter. You ought therefore to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back my own with interest. Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn’t have, even that which he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If you have faith, you naturally keep these things in mind to fear and walk accordingly by what you're taught.
As you live by your faith, you respond to the things you encounter in life through these teachings, producing works.
Just because you're not 'working' doesn't mean you don't work. Again, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Prayer, love, patience, and all the fruits of the spirit are works when done in faith.

The epistle of James in no way contradicts this; 2:18—Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Confession of Jesus Christ is a work, and by this work faith is shown.

Yes, and I like to indicate the truth that genuine faith "naturally" produces good works/spiritual fruit
by calling it "cooperation" with God rather than "obedience", which sounds too much like the OT salvation
via works doctrine.

 

[Ceph]

Yes, and I like to indicate the truth that genuine faith "naturally" produces good works/spiritual fruit
by calling it "cooperation" with God rather than "obedience", which sounds too much like the OT salvation
via works doctrine.

I like "freindship" more than cooperation or obedience.

 

[GWH]

I like "freindship" more than cooperation or obedience.

Yes, and friendship is synonymous with fellowship, as in <truthseekersfellowship.com>.

 

[Ceph]

Yes, and friendship is synonymous with fellowship, as in <truthseekersfellowship.com>.

I can explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies;
He knew that those people would grow up to be evil, so causing their spirits to depart while still innocent would save them to the next life.

 

[wattie]

Works aren't guaranteed to happen for the person who is saved.

They aren't 'back loaded' into salvation anymore than salvation being earned by works.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in a saved person's soul means there is going to be signs of that. But that doesn't mean they definitely will be a faithful believer.

James 2 is about how someone uses the faith they already have for the profit of others.

It's not about how you get saved, or that a saved person is guaranteed to be faithful.

Salvation is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing He lived sinless, died and rose again. That by believing in Him, you have forgiveness of sins, eternal life.

John 3:16,18. John 3:36, 5:24, 6:40.
Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc.

 

[GWH]

I can explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies;
He knew that those people would grow up to be evil, so causing their spirits to depart while still innocent would save them to the next life.

A more likely explanation is that God used the Israelites to punish the Canaanites for their idolatry
and wickedness that--ironically--included child sacrifice.
However, the explanation I prefer is that the Canaanites would have been spared if they had either moved out
or agreed to serve the Israelites like the Gibeonites did.

 

[Ceph]

Works aren't guaranteed to happen for the person who is saved.

They aren't 'back loaded' into salvation anymore than salvation being earned by works.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in a saved person's soul means there is going to be signs of that. But that doesn't mean they definitely will be a faithful believer.

James 2 is about how someone uses the faith they already have for the profit of others.

It's not about how you get saved, or that a saved person is guaranteed to be faithful.

Salvation is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing He lived sinless, died and rose again. That by believing in Him, you have forgiveness of sins, eternal life.

John 3:16,18. John 3:36, 5:24, 6:40.
Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc.

I agree, but beleiving is faithfulness.

 

[Ceph]

A more likely explanation is that God used the Israelites to punish the Canaanites for their idolatry
and wickedness that--ironically--included child sacrifice.
However, the explanation I prefer is that the Canaanites would have been spared if they had either moved out
or agreed to serve the Israelites like the Gibeonites did.

Cannanites are simply a cursed seed. They didn't repent of their works after witnessing firsthand the might of Gods power and his favor for Israel, but the offspring who were spared continue to cause trouble.
If you're confident in Gods love and his forknowledge & forbearence for everything, his orders to genocide an entire race of people shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[GWH]

Cannanites are simply a cursed seed. They didn't repent of their works after witnessing firsthand the might of Gods power and his favor for Israel, but the offspring who were spared continue to cause trouble.
If you're confident in Gods love and his forknowledge & forbearence for everything, his orders to genocide an entire race of people shouldn't be taken lightly.

And the Israelites weren't any better per Hebrews 3:7-13 and Deuteronomy 9:4-7.

 

[Ouch]

Also consider the parable of the talents and sheep/goats:
“For it is like a man going into another country, who called his own servants and entrusted his goods to them. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his own ability. Then he went on his journey. Immediately he who received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. In the same way, he also who got the two gained another two. But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord’s money.
“Now after a long time the lord of those servants came, and settled accounts with them. He who received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents. Behold, I have gained another five talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who got the two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents. Behold, I have gained another two talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things. I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you didn’t sow, and gathering where you didn’t scatter. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I didn’t sow, and gather where I didn’t scatter. You ought therefore to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back my own with interest. Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn’t have, even that which he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If you have faith, you naturally keep these things in mind to fear and walk accordingly by what you're taught.
As you live by your faith, you respond to the things you encounter in life through these teachings, producing works.
Just because you're not 'working' doesn't mean you don't work. Again, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Prayer, love, patience, and all the fruits of the spirit are works when done in faith.

The epistle of James in no way contradicts this; 2:18—Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Confession of Jesus Christ is a work, and by this work faith is shown.

Being reborn should be the most important thing we can do, then we can talk about what color the trees are lol.

In every debate I have with those who thinks we are saved by grace or faith or both and don't need to do nothing I ask HOW DO YOU GET RID OF YOUR SINS.

Then the year long debate starts because they can't show me in scripture where grace or faith alone gets rid of sins.

Big problem is they don't rightly divide the word of GOD.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John JESUS was with us.

Acts or Action the building of the church all that JESUS taught why he was here came into action and the foundation of the church was established.

After the book of Acts you will not find ANY SPIFIC instructions on how to be reborn do to those who Paul and others are speaking to are those who HAVE BEEN REBORN with the foundation of the book of Acts.

So those who I ask HOW DO WE GET RID OF OUR SINS all go to

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

OR,

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Which are of course both HIS word and true but neither tell WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED.

According to JESUS,
John 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

LUKE said,
Luke 24:47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is the first message that LUKE prophesied to happen.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Why I ask, how do we get rid of our sins?
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

So NO way does GOD hear, the man-made sinners prayer or people who jUST THINK that grace or faith alone can save you CAN'T BE SAVED WITH SIN.

Satan's plan keep them OUT OF THE WATER and if they do go in the water KEEP JESUS name out of it.

 

[Ouch]

Works aren't guaranteed to happen for the person who is saved.

They aren't 'back loaded' into salvation anymore than salvation being earned by works.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in a saved person's soul means there is going to be signs of that. But that doesn't mean they definitely will be a faithful believer.

James 2 is about how someone uses the faith they already have for the profit of others.

It's not about how you get saved, or that a saved person is guaranteed to be faithful.

Salvation is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing He lived sinless, died and rose again. That by believing in Him, you have forgiveness of sins, eternal life.

John 3:16,18. John 3:36, 5:24, 6:40.
Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc.

If GOD does NOT hear sinners,

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

And it's sin that separates us from GOD,

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

I ask you how do we get rid of our sins?

 

[TMS]

All our works will not earn or make us good enough for salvation.

Salvation is 100% a gift from God
Salvation is 100% by faith
Salvation is not because of our works but because of Jesus's works and blood.

But faith is not an excuse to sin.

Because of Jesus alone we are able to be saved.

Faith in Jesus = Justification (the perfect life credited to us so we are seen as if we have not sinned.)
Faith in Jesus = sanctification (the transformed life given to us day by day.)

Both works and faith are a gift from God.

Works and faith should not be seperated. They go hand in hand and work together.

Faith without works is dead...

Works without faith is useless.. because our works will never be good enough.

 

[wattie]

If GOD does NOT hear sinners,

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

And it's sin that separates us from GOD,

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

I ask you how do we get rid of our sins?

The person who says God does not hear sinners is not speaking God's Word, but his own opinion and is not a godly person. You can't build a teaching around what he says.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The person who says God does not hear sinners is not speaking God's Word, but his own opinion and is not a godly person. You can't build a teaching around what he says.

But he just posted the verse that exactly says God doesn't hear or listen to sinners. See?

If GOD does NOT hear sinners,

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

And it's sin that separates us from GOD,

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

I ask you how do we get rid of our sins?

 

[wolfwint]

Also consider the parable of the talents and sheep/goats:
“For it is like a man going into another country, who called his own servants and entrusted his goods to them. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his own ability. Then he went on his journey. Immediately he who received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. In the same way, he also who got the two gained another two. But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord’s money.
“Now after a long time the lord of those servants came, and settled accounts with them. He who received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents. Behold, I have gained another five talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who got the two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents. Behold, I have gained another two talents in addition to them.’
“His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things. I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“He also who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you that you are a hard man, reaping where you didn’t sow, and gathering where you didn’t scatter. I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Behold, you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I didn’t sow, and gather where I didn’t scatter. You ought therefore to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back my own with interest. Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn’t have, even that which he has will be taken away. Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If you have faith, you naturally keep these things in mind to fear and walk accordingly by what you're taught.
As you live by your faith, you respond to the things you encounter in life through these teachings, producing works.
Just because you're not 'working' doesn't mean you don't work. Again, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Prayer, love, patience, and all the fruits of the spirit are works when done in faith.

The epistle of James in no way contradicts this; 2:18—Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Confession of Jesus Christ is a work, and by this work faith is shown.

We cant justificate us through works. Never never never. Its is grace and faith. The deeds we do, should be the result of our faith.
So it is faith, because of Gods grace!
If we could justificate us through works. Then for what we need Jesus?