Why doesn’t Hebrews mention ….

[lrs68]

I've noticed that you are so bent on what you believe that you ignore and challenge anyone and anything that has even a possibility of putting you in check. You are really a piece of work.

He's been given proof from a DNA site that deals with the Jewish Heritage from myself in another thread.

He's against the Jews so even if you could take all of the truths and facts and cram them into his understanding he's so against the Jews he would ignore and deny it. He believes in Replacement Theology so anything that proves it wrong [(which literally many Chapters and Verses + DNA and the fact real Jews live in Israel currently and not every Jew was removed in 70 AD only those in Jerusalem which is not ALL of Israel)] he denies with Scripture that must be taken out of context, twisted and diverted to claim otherwise to fit his personal belief system.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hebrews was written to Jewish believers. The physical temple was not yet destroyed. The writer was encouraging/warning them not to return to the old customs.

The book of Revelation was written in 95 AD. The temple had been destroyed by then. Chapter 13 describes the Antichrist being seated in the temple and claiming to be God. That will be difficult if there is no temple.

If I was writing to Jewish believers who were wavering about entering fully into the New Covenant, I'd not mention a rebuilt temple. And I doubt if God revealed this to the writer anyway. It was not necessary.

What do you make of Revelation 11? It mentions the temple, two witnesses killed in Jerusalem and a great earthquake that destroys 1/10 of the city. 7,000 people die. And that in AD95, looking to the future. Has there ever been 144,000 Israelites preaching the gospel? Why do I say that they preach the gospel? They are servants of God, sealed and protected. And after they 144,000 are sealed, a great multitude are standing before the throne of God and the Lamb.

"The meek will inherit the earth". Does that not mean an earthly, physical kingdom here on earth? The Lord's prayer is even clearer. God's will is for His kingdom to come - on earth as in heaven. This is the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, followed by a new heavens and a new earth. It's all there in the Book.

thanks for the input so why then all the stuff in Hebrews aboit the man made temple on earth just being a temporary pattern that Moses was shown of what’s in heaven ? And why say the high priest is already entered into gods temple in heaven ? Why promise the Hebrew believers that they aren’t going to inherit an earthly kingdom but a heavenly one ? Why explain to them they haven’t come to Moses and the law made for israel from Sinai but to Jesus and the heavenly Jerusalem ?

It’s not only that they don’t mention rebuilding an earthly temple or mention Israel’s earthly restoration ….they sort of also explain different things like man made temples are useless now they were temporary for the old covenent patterns … and god doesn’t dwell in them and Jesus isn’t even a preist on earth ect ?

 

[ZNP]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Personally I understand this to refer to the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ and of the New Jerusalem. I think it is completely idiotic to interpret this as the temple being rebuilt prior to Armageddon or that this is a reference to the Sanctuary when the Antichrist has set up an abomination in it and the Earth has been struck by wormwood. Now it is crystal clear in the New testament that there is no temple in the New Jerusalem because the entire New Jerusalem is the temple, and there is no possible way the New Jerusalem is built by the Jews on earth, it descends from heaven.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Once again, this is not going to happen during the Great Tribulation when a third of the people on earth die and all the nations assemble themselves to fight with Israel at Armageddon. Nor can this possibly be a reference to the Sanctuary when Antichrist sets up an Idol in the Sanctuary and the genuine Jews flee Israel.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Yes, this verse is definitely a reference to the last seven years commonly called the Tribulation. Yes, this definitely indicates that sacrifice and oblation are going to be taking place prior to the midpoint of the seven year tribulation. According to the context this "confirming the covenant" or "strengthening the covenant" can certainly refer to the UN and the Antichrist doing something that opens the way for Israel to once again have sacrifices and oblations. Technically the burning of the red heifer is not a "sacrifice" because it was not done on the altar of God. Rather it is called a ceremony. But it is a necessary requirement prior to them doing all the sacrifices and oblations. So it is certainly a major step in this direction. However, there is nothing in this verse to suggest that the Jews rebuild the temple, they could easily raise the Tabernacle of David and that would be in perfect alignment with this verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Definition of this word temple --

1. used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

This should be translated as Holy Sanctuary and not Temple.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

The definition of this word for temple is this: the neuter of the adjective hieros, "sacred," is used as a noun denoting "a sacred place, a temple," that of Artemis (Diana), Act 19:27; that in Jerusalem, Mar 11:11, signifying the entire building with its precincts, or some part thereof, as distinct from the naos, "the inner sanctuary" (see No. 2); apart from the Gospels and Acts, it is mentioned only in 1Cr 9:13. Christ taught in one of the courts, to which all the people had access. Hieron is never used figuratively. The Temple mentioned in the Gospels and Acts was begun by Herod in 20 B.C., and destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. (Vine's expository dictionary)

It is a different word than the word used in 2 Thessalonians.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

This word also refers to the Holy Sanctuary.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This word also refers to the Holy Sanctuary. There is the exact same Holy Sanctuary inside the tabernacle as was inside the temple. What this verse shows is you will have 42 months where the city is tread under foot by the Gentiles. That is three and a half years. We can also see that the Holy Sanctuary of God will be on the Temple mount with the people who worship God being measured. But again, no mention of the Temple as a giant cathedral to God. There is not a single prophecy of the Jews rebuilding their temple. The word of God is very clear, the Holy Sanctuary of God will once again be on the Temple mount along with sacrifices and oblations. That much is true. Is it the tabernacle of David or is it a Temple? The only prophecy we have on that says that the Tabernacle of David will be raised again.

 

[God-fearing]

He's been given proof from a DNA site that deals with the Jewish Heritage from myself in another thread.

He's against the Jews so even if you could take all of the truths and facts and cram them into his understanding he's so against the Jews he would ignore and deny it. He believes in Replacement Theology so anything that proves it wrong [(which literally many Chapters and Verses + DNA and the fact real Jews live in Israel currently and not every Jew was removed in 70 AD only those in Jerusalem which is not ALL of Israel)] he denies with Scripture that must be taken out of context, twisted and diverted to claim otherwise to fit his personal belief system.

Thank you for the input...this just confirms what I suspected

 

[presidente]

Why doesn’t the letter written to the Hebrews mention the restoring of thier temple or land or thier riegn for a thousand years on earth ? but instead it explaines that tbier inheritance and promised land isn’t on this earth but in heaven ?

I take references to heaven in Hebrews in light of other scriptures that indicate that our inheritance is currently laid up in heaven, not that we will be in heaven for eternity. In Revelation, which is admittedly full of metaphor, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I take references to heaven in Hebrews in light of other scriptures that indicate that our inheritance is currently laid up in heaven, not that we will be in heaven for eternity. In Revelation, which is admittedly full of metaphor, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven.

well said I agree for the most part in Hebrews tbough we find out that they always understood tbat this earth wasn’t thier homeland and promised land of God . When it goes through the hall of faithful ot men and some nt also it comes to this place speaking about them all

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree that at the end of this world then the new Jerusalem will come to a new earth promised by god since about 700 bc

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this earth we live on now is reserved for the judgement of fire for the ungodly Christ will bring when he returns

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. ….but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

….Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4, 7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the faithful always knew this earth wasn’t the promised land but the new earth he promised way back

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earththis is where israel will be restored as a nation of peace and Jesus will rule from Jerusalem on new earth )

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Only there will be no temple constructed in it

but the temple of the lord , Jesus will be in it . and he will walk among us on a new earth fulfilling his promises to Israel’s children and Abraham’s seed of faith who are of many nations.

“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


from this earth , to heavens kingdom and then a new creation is fulfilled a new heaven and earth . just like the beginning … there’s a new beginning in the end of the Bible

In the beginning

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut because of mankind’s corruption

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And eventually his plan comes to fruition

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then we see his true plan come to pass

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. ( Jesus will be walking among us like in the gospel )

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s going to keep his promises but his way and not so much like some of us think

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

well said I agree for the most part in Hebrews tbough we find out that they always understood tbat this earth wasn’t thier homeland and promised land of God . When it goes through the hall of faithful ot men and some nt also it comes to this place speaking about them all

I think it's meant to be read that they knew the earth in its corrupted condition in which unrighteousness and death reign wasn't their permanent home. So they set their hearts on heaven from whence righteousness comes instead of on a temporary resisdence. Earth has to be their homeland because God promised the land to Abraham. But it must be cleansed and sanctified first before that can happen.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think it's meant to be read that they knew the earth in its corrupted condition in which unrighteousness and death reign wasn't their permanent home. So they set their hearts on heaven from whence righteousness comes instead of on a temporary resisdence. Earth has to be their homeland because God promised the land to Abraham. But it must be cleansed and sanctified first before that can happen.

well sated and I appreciate the input

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I found it... the music in the background certainly adds to the veracity!

A Holywood production sure is hard evidence to refute, especially when narrated by an AI-generated Sir David Attenborough-type voice

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

He's been given proof from a DNA site that deals with the Jewish Heritage from myself in another thread.

He's against the Jews so even if you could take all of the truths and facts and cram them into his understanding he's so against the Jews he would ignore and deny it. He believes in Replacement Theology so anything that proves it wrong [(which literally many Chapters and Verses + DNA and the fact real Jews live in Israel currently and not every Jew was removed in 70 AD only those in Jerusalem which is not ALL of Israel)] he denies with Scripture that must be taken out of context, twisted and diverted to claim otherwise to fit his personal belief system.

Bravo! What a speech. When you get off your soapbox would you mind posting a link to that DNA website again?

 

[JohnDB]

A Holywood production sure is hard evidence to refute, especially when narrated by an AI-generated Sir David Attenborough-type voice

Its almost as if I predicted your answer.

Maybe I'm a prophet who can see in the future.

 

[SilverFox7]

Hebrews was written to Jewish believers. The physical temple was not yet destroyed. The writer was encouraging/warning them not to return to the old customs.

The book of Revelation was written in 95 AD. The temple had been destroyed by then. Chapter 13 describes the Antichrist being seated in the temple and claiming to be God. That will be difficult if there is no temple.

If I was writing to Jewish believers who were wavering about entering fully into the New Covenant, I'd not mention a rebuilt temple. And I doubt if God revealed this to the writer anyway. It was not necessary.

What do you make of Revelation 11? It mentions the temple, two witnesses killed in Jerusalem and a great earthquake that destroys 1/10 of the city. 7,000 people die. And that in AD95, looking to the future. Has there ever been 144,000 Israelites preaching the gospel? Why do I say that they preach the gospel? They are servants of God, sealed and protected. And after they 144,000 are sealed, a great multitude are standing before the throne of God and the Lamb.

"The meek will inherit the earth". Does that not mean an earthly, physical kingdom here on earth? The Lord's prayer is even clearer. God's will is for His kingdom to come - on earth as in heaven. This is the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, followed by a new heavens and a new earth. It's all there in the Book.

Thank you for the insightful commentary, Gideon, and you've addressed @Pilgrimshope original question very well. Revelation was written some ~30 years after the book of Hebrews, and it's The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's revealing, something new Christ revealed to the Church related to His plan of salvation.

The most convincing evidence I see of the millennium comes toward the end of Revelation:

Revelation 20

New King James Version

Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I've been a lit. scholar/teacher for 40 years, so I understand creative writing, metaphors, and symbolism pretty well. The verses from Revelation 20 look literal to me and pretty straight forward.

 

[presidente]

Hebrews was written to Jewish believers. The physical temple was not yet destroyed. The writer was encouraging/warning them not to return to the old customs.

Early Jewish believers participated in the temple in Jerusalem.

And why wouldn't they? Jesus went in the temple. We see scenes of him teaching in the temple and overthrowing tables as we read the New Testament. He sent cleansed lepers to the priests where they were to perform the ritual that Moses commanded at which would have included a sacrifice.

Then if we look at Acts the apostles were still going into the temple. It even says that many priests became obedient to the faith and of course priests were those who offered incense in animal sacrifices.

Paul the apostle made a vow in Cenchrea (I am not emdorsing that) shaving his head. Now the Old Testament Nazareth vowel would have the hair turned in and the tabernacle which would later be transferred to the temple as the temple was built and took on the permanent role of the tabernacle. It did not have Jews shaving their heads in Cenchrea. But it seems likely that he would have shaved the unvowed unsanctified hair so that he would not be encumbered with very long hair when he turned in his vow.

Some men tried to warn him 'through the S/spirit' not to go up to Jerusalem. But he felt 'bound in spirit' to go there. If he had a vow requiring him to turn in his hair then it makes sense that he would feel compelled and obligated to go to Jerusalem.

There were a lot of rumors about Paul and so when he did go to Jerusalem it was amid some controversy and the apostles sent him to James and the elders. They pointed out to Paul how many Jewish believers who were zealous for the law had come to faith. In chapter 15 they together with Paul had agreed that the gentiles were not obligated to be certain you're an obligation to obey the law of Moses In chapter 15 they together with Paul had agreed that the Gentiles were not obligated to be certain you're an obligation to obey the law of Moses. They could remain gentiles and the Old Testament predicted that God was choosing from among the Gentiles of people for Himself.

But they wanted to dispel rumors that Paul was teaching the Jews who lived among the Gentiles not to circumcise their children and other such things.

They probably looked at Paul's Shaggy head and maybe they discussed his vow with him. Whatever the case they asked him to pay the expenses for men who had a vow on them in the temple to dispel the rumors is about Paul not following the law. Paul complied. The details in the axe passage are actually consistent with someone who made the nazarette vow but accidentally broken. My guess is with the desire to sell more animals and make more money and also Jewish teachings on putting a hedge around the Torah that it may become the custom to require that any Nazareth do the rituals for having broken the vow just in case.

In response to lying gossip that Paul had brought gentiles into the temple some men detained him and there was an uproar.

A centurion who likely was not supposed to be in the temple as a Gentile himself from a Jewish perspective but he had a sword and the army, Mistook Paul for an Egyptian. Why?

I think it may be because he had just had the Nazareth vowed hair removed. Egyptians especially those of the upper classes shaved their heads and bodies. So Paul and his companions may have looked like Gentiles.

Anyway my point is it does not make sense to interpret the book of hebrews to mean that jews should not go back to temple when the impossi likely participated in such things and so did many in the Jewish church in Jerusalem

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for the insightful commentary, Gideon, and you've addressed @Pilgrimshope original question very well. Revelation was written some ~30 years after the book of Hebrews, and it's The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's revealing, something new Christ revealed to the Church related to His plan of salvation.

The most convincing evidence I see of the millennium comes toward the end of Revelation:

Revelation 20

New King James Version

Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I've been a lit. scholar/teacher for 40 years, so I understand creative writing, metaphors, and symbolism pretty well. The verses from Revelation 20 look literal to me and pretty straight forward.

Thanks for the input bro

What I was wondering Is shouldn’t that be in the New Testament teachings in the epistles or gospel if it literal?

for instance how does this leave room for a thousand year reign on this earth when Jesus returns ?

“that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:2-4, 7, 9-10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wheres the part where there’s a thousand years after Jesus retirns before it’s destroyed ? Or here which aligns with Peter

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or even when Jesus is explaining things in the gospel

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-14‬ ‭

“Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:12-13, 24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which aligns with Paul of course

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is not only Hebrews never mentions it no New Testament prophecies say it . And wouldn’t something that important to the people that were with him in the Bible Hebrews , be a main well onow and consistent part of the doctrine they all taught . Especially the letter specifically written to Hebrews?


sort of my point was th at the only thing in the Bible that suggests a millenisl repgn on this earth is revelation the part you mentioned but it’s not found in th e doctrine and infact the doctrine about Jesus return from heaven doesn’t allow for it to happen because the earth is destroyed with fire when he returns and is reserved for the punishment of the ungodly according to Peter there above

the doctirne doesn’t really seem to even speak of it . Things in scripture should conform and be well stated in the actual doctrine like the rest of revelation is

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭

i honestly don’t see the doctrine allowing for it which was why I was wondering if I was missing something in Hebrews because Hebrews isn’t promising a reign on this earth at all but is promising the kingdom of God the heavenly promised land

 

[SilverFox7]

Thanks for the input bro

What I was wondering Is shouldn’t that be in the New Testament teachings in the epistles or gospel if it literal?

for instance how does this leave room for a thousand year reign on this earth when Jesus returns ?

“that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:2-4, 7, 9-10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wheres the part where there’s a thousand years after Jesus retirns before it’s destroyed ? Or here which aligns with Peter

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or even when Jesus is explaining things in the gospel

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-14‬ ‭

“Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:12-13, 24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which aligns with Paul of course

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is not only Hebrews never mentions it no New Testament prophecies say it . And wouldn’t something that important to the people that were with him in the Bible Hebrews , be a main well onow and consistent part of the doctrine they all taught . Especially the letter specifically written to Hebrews?


sort of my point was th at the only thing in the Bible that suggests a millenisl repgn on this earth is revelation the part you mentioned but it’s not found in th e doctrine and infact the doctrine about Jesus return from heaven doesn’t allow for it to happen because the earth is destroyed with fire when he returns and is reserved for the punishment of the ungodly according to Peter there above

the doctirne doesn’t really seem to even speak of it . Things in scripture should conform and be well stated in the actual doctrine like the rest of revelation is

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭

i honestly don’t see the doctrine allowing for it which was why I was wondering if I was missing something in Hebrews because Hebrews isn’t promising a reign on this earth at all but is promising the kingdom of God the heavenly promised land

I understand where you're coming from, bro, and there are a lot of different perspectives on the timing and details of end time events leading up to the return of the Jesus Christ and what happens from that point forward. That's why I think, just my opinion and theory, that Revelation is just that - a revealing of timing and details that weren't clear up until Jesus revealed them to His beloved apostle John while he was in prison and nearing the end of his physical life.

And, if we use the latter part of Revelation as a baseline for history after Jesus returns, it sheds a lot of light on OT prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet, specifically within the book of Daniel that aligns so well with Revelation.

It's interesting, too, that Jesus describes His return as both a thief in the night (e.g. we don't when it will happen specifically) and yet when He does return, there will be no doubt. All will see Him coming in glory and power. Terrestrial and celestial will be shaken, and the forces of evil will be crushed. Yet, Revelation and some of the verses you mention allude to the New Heavens and New Earth coming into being when all things are made new. That's how Peter's verses strike me in particular.

The Jerusalem that is above mentioned in Hebrews is that place Jesus is preparing for us. It will come down from heaven and be established on earth forever. That's the new heaven and new earth where we will dwell with God forever. Revelation places that after the 1000 years, the second resurrection, and the final judgement of the non-repentant in Satan's camp being thrown into the lake of fire.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this fascinating topic. God still tantalizes us with a lot of mysteries!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I understand where you're coming from, bro, and there are a lot of different perspectives on the timing and details of end time events leading up to the return of the Jesus Christ and what happens from that point forward. That's why I think, just my opinion and theory, that Revelation is just that - a revealing of timing and details that weren't clear up until Jesus revealed them to His beloved apostle John while he was in prison and nearing the end of his physical life.

And, if we use the latter part of Revelation as a baseline for history after Jesus returns, it sheds a lot of light on OT prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet, specifically within the book of Daniel that aligns so well with Revelation.

It's interesting, too, that Jesus describes His return as both a thief in the night (e.g. we don't when it will happen specifically) and yet when He does return, there will be no doubt. All will see Him coming in glory and power. Terrestrial and celestial will be shaken, and the forces of evil will be crushed. Yet, Revelation and some of the verses you mention allude to the New Heavens and New Earth coming into being when all things are made new. That's how Peter's verses strike me in particular.

The Jerusalem that is above mentioned in Hebrews is that place Jesus is preparing for us. It will come down from heaven and be established on earth forever. That's the new heaven and new earth where we will dwell with God forever. Revelation places that after the 1000 years, the second resurrection, and the final judgement of the non-repentant in Satan's camp being thrown into the lake of fire.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this fascinating topic. God still tantalizes us with a lot of mysteries!

always a good read and to hear from you . And amen people have different ideas I’m just stating mine .

“The Jerusalem that is above mentioned in Hebrews is that place Jesus is preparing for us. It will come down from heaven and be established on earth forever.”


Yes bro to the new earth after th ie one ends . Bit did you notice ehatnjesus told his Hebrew followers before he went to heaven ?

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬

see how he’s saying I’m going elsewhere tomorrow te a place for you , and I’ll come back and gether you so you can be where I am ?

I agree with this that you said

“It will come down from heaven and be established on earth forever.”


But not down to this current earth

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. … But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

( after this happens then Jerusalem will be restored on a new earth )


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See what I’m saying Jerusalems still in heaven at this point until this earth passes away and the new one comes forth then yes amen israel will be restored on a new earth with everyone else where god walks among us himself where there’s no more death or sorrow where all things are new even heaven and earth


So understanding Jerusalem was still in heaven because it comes down from heaven after this world ends to a new earth can you see my position that they aren’t reigning with Christ on this earth but in heaven until the earth ends and new creation he’s promised for many many ages to israel comes ?

He began telling them about this way back here

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Awee tboer restoration was always about the new heavens and earth after this happens like Peter was saying and like the prophets told israel

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

…Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5,

But we have his promise of a new creation and why should we doubt he created this earth and he’s promised to make a new and better one where israel will be restored to its glory and then some as gods eternal plans will be fulfilled


I’m not saying israel isn’t going to be restored but I’m saying that’s going to happen according to gods plan for a new earth later right now those who were raised are in heavens kingdom with him waiting for the restoration to come

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But not down to this current earth

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. … But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Why isn't it the current earth? Fire, or more specifically, nuclear fire, can't destroy the planet, but it can destroy the world and its works, which I think is what Peter is talking about. The world order is demolished and ground to dust so that Christ's kingdom can be established upon it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why isn't it the current earth? Fire, or more specifically, nuclear fire, can't destroy the planet, but it can destroy the world and its works, which I think is what Peter is talking about. The world order is demolished and ground to dust so that Christ's kingdom can be established upon it.

“Why isn't it the current earth?”

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peters addressing Jesus return from heaven like Paul is here

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭

I don’t think Jesus os coming back with nukes but probably like when the world was flooded when Jesus returns it’s going to bring the fires we’ve heard about throughout the Bible that will end this world and all the ungodly

Can I ask . do you believe God could destroy it all and build it anew ? At Jesus return like peter and Paul and John and Isaiah are talking about ?

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Can I ask . do you believe God could destroy it all and build it anew ? At Jesus return like peter and Paul and John and Isaiah are talking about ?

Yes, that is what the millenium is for. God won't build it, but man under the rule of Christ and his kingdom will build the world back probably to state magnitudes greater than our current state.

 

[JohnDB]

It's interesting, too, that Jesus describes His return as both a thief in the night (e.g. we don't when it will happen specifically) and yet when He does return, there will be no doubt

The "Theif in the night" reference dovetails with the other reference of "one shall be taken and the other left behind"

Meaning....
There is ONLY ONE method of protection. Only one way to prepare. There is zero gaming the system. (People love doing that)
No different from going back into history knowing winning lottery numbers and purchasing those.