Jehovah's Witnesses 101

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Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I wasn't all that competent with the
Bible, and thus unaware JWs didn't believe the same as conventional
Christians.

But when I spoke of my encounter with an older Christian at work; he
became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled "30 Years A
Watchtower Slave
" by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time
demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was a former JW who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he
knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.

Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a debate
because even if I was to best them scripture for scripture, they wouldn't give
up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is
right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly
convinced that the Society is the voice of God, while my voice is regarded as
no more valid than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From
The Scriptures
".

(This was all before the internet and the ready volume of information
available online, e.g. YouTube.)

From all that vetting, study, and training I discovered that although the
Watchtower Society uses many of conventional Christianity's terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the
JW mind than what I expected because the Society has re-defined them.

All in all; coping with Jehovah's Witness doctrines has been an Herculean
task because their beliefs are such a tangle of semantics coupled with a
bizarre assortment of twisted scriptures, double speak, rationalizing,
humanistic reasoning, and clever sophistry.
_
 
All very true. It is a cult that uses psychological pressure to capture and keep its members. I know an excellent pastor who can think circles around these people and he has given up on them. They are not listening. They are not allowed to question their beliefs or do independent research to verify their doctrines. I believe that's considered doubting and a lack of faith. The top dog in the cult is a billionaire, btw. It's all about the money, and of course keeping people from belief in Christ.
 
.
My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I wasn't all that competent with the
Bible, and thus unaware JWs didn't believe the same as conventional
Christians.


But when I spoke of my encounter with an older Christian at work; he
became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled "30 Years A
Watchtower Slave" by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time
demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.


After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.


Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was a former JW who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he
knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.


Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a debate
because even if I was to best them scripture for scripture, they wouldn't give
up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is
right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly
convinced that the Society is the voice of God, while my voice is regarded as
no more valid than that of a squeaky little gerbil.


Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From
The Scriptures".


(This was all before the internet and the ready volume of information
available online, e.g. YouTube.)


From all that vetting, study, and training I discovered that although the
Watchtower Society uses many of conventional Christianity's terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the
JW mind than what I expected because the Society has re-defined them.


All in all; coping with Jehovah's Witness doctrines has been an Herculean
task because their beliefs are such a tangle of semantics coupled with a
bizarre assortment of twisted scriptures, double speak, rationalizing,
humanistic reasoning, and clever sophistry.
_
I just tell them I am born again and wait for the reaction. Most of them can't handle it. One was intimidated as if I was some kind of superior being. My wife will confirm that I am not!

People join cults for a number of reasons, often simply to belong to something. It's sad. Perhaps if the church thought more about preaching the gospel in love and maintaining unity, more people would be drawn the true Jesus instead of the fake JW or Mormon version.
 
.
My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I wasn't all that competent with the
Bible, and thus unaware JWs didn't believe the same as conventional
Christians.


But when I spoke of my encounter with an older Christian at work; he
became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled "30 Years A
Watchtower Slave" by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time
demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.


After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.


Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was a former JW who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he
knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.


Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a debate
because even if I was to best them scripture for scripture, they wouldn't give
up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is
right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly
convinced that the Society is the voice of God, while my voice is regarded as
no more valid than that of a squeaky little gerbil.


Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From
The Scriptures".


(This was all before the internet and the ready volume of information
available online, e.g. YouTube.)


From all that vetting, study, and training I discovered that although the
Watchtower Society uses many of conventional Christianity's terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the
JW mind than what I expected because the Society has re-defined them.


All in all; coping with Jehovah's Witness doctrines has been an Herculean
task because their beliefs are such a tangle of semantics coupled with a
bizarre assortment of twisted scriptures, double speak, rationalizing,
humanistic reasoning, and clever sophistry.
_
All labeled denominations have some of these traits, not all but some.
It is the Holy Spirit Who teaches each of us when we get right down to the point.
 
Jehovah's Witnesses do provide an important service though. They give all the rest of us Christians somebody to look down on. That's important for humans. We can make jokes and insults about them, laugh at their foolish efforts and beliefs, and that brings us all together. :cool:

Right?

Right.
 
Jehovah's Witnesses do provide an important service though. They give all the rest of us Christians somebody to look down on. That's important for humans. We can make jokes and insults about them, laugh at their foolish efforts and beliefs, and that brings us all together. :cool:

Right?

Right.

100% right!
This is where we need that 💯emoji that @Carlyw was talking about in the suggestions section of this forum.
For example i get the triggering from Catholics in USA, their presentation and conduct hasn't been the best but i don't get Mormons or even JW too.
Like, what's the biggest controversy with these groups? One of them doesn't believe in the Trinity i think?

Because in-person when i speak to them they seem like nice people and very well spoken.
At work i knew a Mormon who was helping his wife through cancer and that's the nicest Mormon I've ever met.

But yeah, they're not going to Tier 3 heaven. I'd be shocked if they even make it to tier 1 Heaven to clean our rooms.
Right? RIGHT?
 
All labeled denominations have some of these traits, not all but some.
It is the Holy Spirit Who teaches each of us when we get right down to the point.
Clarification, the phrase "not all but some," is referencing traits.
 
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100% right!
This is where we need that 💯emoji that @Carlyw was talking about in the suggestions section of this forum.
For example i get the triggering from Catholics in USA, their presentation and conduct hasn't been the best but i don't get Mormons or even JW too.
Like, what's the biggest controversy with these groups? One of them doesn't believe in the Trinity i think?

Because in-person when i speak to them they seem like nice people and very well spoken.
At work i knew a Mormon who was helping his wife through cancer and that's the nicest Mormon I've ever met.

But yeah, they're not going to Tier 3 heaven. I'd be shocked if they even make it to tier 1 Heaven to clean our rooms.
Right? RIGHT?


The only Christian Ive ever met who didnt believe in the trinity was a NKJ only Baptist. I would say his opinions desereved a "💀"
 
The only Christian Ive ever met who didnt believe in the trinity was a NKJ only Baptist. I would say his opinions desereved a "💀"
You may have met a lot of them, but they just don't like to argue about it.
 
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I just tell them I am born again and wait for the reaction.


One day at work I asked an experienced Jehovah's Witness if he was born of
the Spirit in accord with John 3:3-8. He answered no; and added that he
didn't expect to undergo the Spirit birth in either this life or the next because
his hope is a kingdom on Earth rather than up in Heaven.


The JW was somehow unaware that Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus didn't
pertain to a kingdom above, rather, to a kingdom below.


John 3:12 . . . If I have told you earthly things and yet you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


It's both tragic and ironic that the Watchtower Society's rank and file
missionaries go worldwide advertising a kingdom that they themselves will
never be allowed to enter-- not because they didn't work hard enough to
deserve it, but simply because they were led to believe themselves exempt
from the Spirit birth.


John 3:7 . . You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born
again.


In other words: the Spirit birth isn't optional, rather, it's required for everyone
and anyone who wishes to obtain residency in the theocratic kingdom described
and spoken of by the old testament's prophets.
_
 
One day at work I asked an experienced Jehovah's Witness if he was born of
the Spirit in accord with John 3:3-8. He answered no; and added that he
didn't expect to undergo the Spirit birth in either this life or the next because
his hope is a kingdom on Earth rather than up in Heaven.


The JW was somehow unaware that Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus didn't
pertain to a kingdom above, rather, to a kingdom below.


John 3:12 . . . If I have told you earthly things and yet you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


It's both tragic and ironic that the Watchtower Society's rank and file
missionaries go worldwide advertising a kingdom that they themselves will
never be allowed to enter-- not because they didn't work hard enough to
deserve it, but simply because they were led to believe themselves exempt
from the Spirit birth.


John 3:7 . . You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born
again.


In other words: the Spirit birth isn't optional, rather, it's required for everyone
and anyone who wishes to obtain residency in the theocratic kingdom described
and spoken of by the old testament's prophets.
_


I hope the Lord uses you to lead them to Christ. It's usually tough, but I know it's possible though.
Here's some more on the topic. Matt is doctrinally sound and has some more information on his channel if you want to look into his study of them.


 
100% right!
This is where we need that 💯emoji that @Carlyw was talking about in the suggestions section of this forum.
For example i get the triggering from Catholics in USA, their presentation and conduct hasn't been the best but i don't get Mormons or even JW too.
Like, what's the biggest controversy with these groups? One of them doesn't believe in the Trinity i think?

Because in-person when i speak to them they seem like nice people and very well spoken.
At work i knew a Mormon who was helping his wife through cancer and that's the nicest Mormon I've ever met.

But yeah, they're not going to Tier 3 heaven. I'd be shocked if they even make it to tier 1 Heaven to clean our rooms.
Right? RIGHT?
Correct. Neither JWs nor LDS (Mormons) believe in the Deity of Christ.

Some consider that the number one marker of a religious cult.

Also, Jesus said,

Jesus-Words-In-John8-23-24s.png

Jesus' Words in John 8 verses 23b plus 24b ~ Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
 
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.
Were John Que and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very dissimilar processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.


In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible to exist as a spirit being and a material
being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't go
completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.


"The transfer of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible Understanding,
1971, p.920)


"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum of
the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower Magazine, Feb 02, 1982, p.7)


But Michael's existence as a material being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel corpse thus restoring him
to his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease.


In other words: The Watchtower Society's Jesus is still dead, and his
remains are squirreled away on Earth somewhere in a condition and a
location known only to God.


FAQ: How does the Society explain Jesus' post resurrection appearances?

REPLY: Those were an artificial Jesus. The Society claims the angel Michael
disguised himself in a materialized body, i.e. an avatar. I say "disguised"
because never once did their Michael give himself away, rather, their Michael
led Jesus' friends to sincerely believe his crucified dead body was back from
the grave.


* It could be argued that their Jesus lives on in the body of an angel; but
that wouldn't be true seeing as how their Jesus' life force would've been
Michael's to begin with.


The Society has to accept the obvious fact that their doctrine implies that
Christ was never really fully human seeing as how it was the life force of
an angel that kept Jesus alive. In other words: the Society's Jesus wasn't
an authentic human in the normal sense.


FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified dead human form had to
stay dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased.
There's more:


"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar." (The Watchtower Magazine, April 15, 1963, p.237)


However; no biblical precedents exist for leaving sacrifices on the Altar. In
point of fact: certain portions were utilized as food for the priests; and other
parts were taken outside the camp to be incinerated. (Lev 4:12, Lev 4:21,
Lev 16:27, Heb 13:11)
_
 
.
The Word's incarnation-- a.k.a. Christ Jesus --is on track to become Israel's
ultimate monarch. (Micah 5:2, Matt 2:4-6, & Luke 1:30-33)

Although Jesus' spiritual body will be supernatural at that time; its
properties won't necessarily be those of a specter because no matter what
its form or its chemistry, his spiritual body will be capable of dining upon
ordinary foods and beverages in the future theocratic kingdom.

"I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day
when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." (Matt 26:29)

"I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I
tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of
God." (Luke 22:15-16)

"You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a
covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a
kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom." (Luke
22:28-30)

There is an additional detail associated with Israel's ultimate monarch-- a
very important detail.

Lev 17:11 . . For the soul of the flesh is in the blood

That statement is not only true in the medical world, but also applicable in
matters relative to heredity.

God promised David that his natural descendants would be successors to his
throne; and that promise was on oath.

"Jehovah has sworn to David, truly He will not draw back from it: Of the
fruitage of your belly I shall set on your throne." (Ps 132:11)

The new testament verifies that God was thinking of a descendant from the
fruitage of David's loins-- a natural descendant --when that Psalm was
penned.

"Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to you
concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried
and his tomb is among us to this day.

. .Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him
with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his
throne, he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the
Christ that neither was he forsaken in Hádes nor did his flesh see
corruption." (Acts 2:29-31)

In a nutshell; Israel's ultimate monarch will be an authentic human being
rather than an artificial version, or a spirit being, or an angel in disguise.

FAQ: How is it possible for the Word's incarnation to be David's natural
descendant when Mary slept with no man to conceive baby Jesus?

REPLY: Women produce descendants just as readily as men. So if Jesus'
mom was blood kin to David, then any child conceived in Mary's womb
would be David's blood kin too. (cf. Luke 1:31, Luke 1:42, & Gal 4:4)
_
 
.
1Tim 2:5 . . There is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
a man, Christ Jesus.


There are two Greek words in use to translate "men" and "man" in that
verse. The word for "men" is anthroópoon whereas the word for "man" is
ánthroopos. Both are common words for humans in the new testament.


Now it's extremely important to note that Christ Jesus is a human's name
rather than an angel's name, viz: in Watchtower theology Michael the arch
angel was identifying himself as Mary's son Jesus while on Earth, but the
thing is: Michael could no longer identify himself as Mary's son Jesus after
the crucifixion because when her son expired, Michael's life force was
transferred back to Heaven so he could return to his prior existence as an
angel; which of course eo ipso disqualified him from getting installed in the
mediator's position per 1Tim 2:5.


FAQ: Supposing Michael were to don a materialized human body. Couldn't
he then occupy the position of mediator between God and man?


REPLY: A materialized body isn't really human; it's an artificial human, i.e.
an avatar. In Michael's case, it would be an angel in disguise which I seriously
doubt God would accept for the position of the mediator per 1Tim 2:5. And
besides, the position is patterned after Melchizedek-- a human being rather
than a spirit being. (Gen 14:18-20, Ps 110:1-4, Heb 5:1, Heb 5:6-10, Heb 6:20)


NOTE: Heb 5:1-10 requires mediators to have human sensibilities. When the
Society's Michael relinquished his human nature and took back his angel
nature, I believe it is reasonable to assume he lost the human sensibilities
he had while Jesus; thus rendering him no longer capable of relating to us as
a fellow man.
_
 
.
A mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance
to reconcile them, viz: an intercessor.

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the questions from readers
section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

"Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)"

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of the Society's
publication titled "Aid To Bible Understanding" where it says that the
144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
(1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of
the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for
common JWs via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell
direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the
Society presumes itself, i.e. Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a JW either apostatizes or is disfellowshipped, their pipeline
to the mediator is broken, and they right quick lose all contact with Christ;
thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with God, and placing themselves
in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

Bottom line: according to the Jehovah's Witnesses; it is impossible for the
world's 2.52 billion conventional Christians, nor anybody else, to be on
peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation with the Watchtower Society,
ergo: if you are not one of them, then you are not one of His.
_
 
Because it's so much fun to excoriate a group of people we can all agree are beneath us! Especially when those people are not here to talk back.

*Sigh

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Jehovah's Witnesses do provide an important service though. They give all the rest of us Christians somebody to look down on. That's important for humans. We can make jokes and insults about them, laugh at their foolish efforts and beliefs, and that brings us all together. :cool:

Right?

Right.
We aught to pray that as many will beleive the truth as God allows.
Condemnation is not a light sentence. It's infinitely descending columns of fire, with no heaven or earth, but chaos and torment, and fire burning into the bones; always being a new suffering, and never ending.
What's the worst pain you've ever felt on earth? If you enter into condemnation, you'd be wishing you were experiencing that pain ten times as strong forever, instead of Gods fate for those who reject him.
It's a fate designed to lay satan himself to waste, so what man could endure it?
 
.
Matt 24:45-47 . .Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his
master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper
time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I
say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.


The core of the Watchtower Society-- the Governing Body --sincerely
believes itself the faithful and discreet slave spoken of in that passage, i.e.
believes that God chose the leaders of the Watchtower Society as His sole
distributor of truth to mankind; thus explaining why John Que and Jane Doe
Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that they need to submit unquestioningly to
the Governing Body in order to associate with God, and for protection from
doomsday, viz: the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.


"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true
followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful
slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this
channel."
(Jul 15, 2013 Watchtower, p.20)


"We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s
approval."
(Jul 15, 2011 Watchtower, Simplified English Edition, p.24)


"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or
harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has
complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through
his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave."
(Aug 01, 2001
Watchtower, p.14)


According to the above: rank and file JWs are being taught that it's essential
to comply with the Governing Body's teachings. However; at the same time
they are warned that the Body's teachings should not be assumed either
inspired or infallible.


"The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in
doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watchtower
Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists
adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did
not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food."
(Feb 2017
Watchtower Study Edition, ¶12, under the heading: Who is leading God's People today?)


Just imagine the degree of confusion and insecurity that would pervade the
minds of conventional Christians had the authors of the New Testament
scriptures attached a disclaimer to their writings similar to the above.


And there's this:

"Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or
expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who
believe that God uses the Watchtower as a means of communicating to his
people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The
Watchtower."
(Jan 01, 1942 Watchtower magazine, p.5)


In other words: the haulers of water and the hewers of wood-- John Que and
Jane Doe rank and file JW --are not only expected to know what's in
Watchtower magazines, but they're also required to accept the contents as
God's providence in spite of the Society's caveat that their teachings are
neither inspired, infallible, nor guaranteed free of error.
_
 
.
Passages like Gen 9:3-4, Lev 7:26-27, Lev 17:10-14, and Acts 15:19-20 are
commonly utilized to support the personal belief that medical blood
transfusions constitute consuming blood for food.

Rather than get into a running gun battle with folks over the interpretation
of those passages; I suggest another tact. And our purpose is not to win a
debate; only to offer a second opinion.

Jesus broke the letter of the Sabbath law on a number of occasions, and
when doing so typically based his actions upon the principle that the spirit
of the Sabbath trumps the letter of the Sabbath because the spirit of the
Sabbath takes into consideration the value of human life. (cf. Matt 12:3-8)

For example; were we to see a Doberman Pinscher attacking a small child on
private property, no sensible person would have us arrested for trespassing
with the intent to protect the child because in that situation, the value of
human life trumps the letter of the law.


NOTE: Human life was the only form of life created in the image and likeness
of God; which strongly suggests that all other forms of life were meant to be
expendable whereas human life was meant to be sacred. (cf. Matt 12:11-12
where Jesus compared the value of a beast on the Sabbath day with that of
a man's value).
_