The Bible: Literal Fact

[JohnChingford2007]

DOCTOR STRANGELOVE said:

My statement was:

Whenever there is any scripture that COULD be describing the movement/non movement of the Earth/sun.....its ALWAYS the earth thats stationary and the sun thats moving.

You didnt agree and provided a verse. I rebutted it. No word from you since on that scripture.

Do you have any more verses or can you agree with my statement?[/QUOTE]


Hi Doc

I did present my answer (twice now). However, you have not replied to it. I will paste it again:

"When it comes to the Heavens, God is literally telling us what we can see with our own eyes or He has inspired the writer to use his own personality in conveying the message. That writer (in most of your examples) was a poetic writer and therefore wrote in poetic style using language that made sense to the readers. Just like we do today! Example we say "the sun will set in about one hour". "I will wake before the rising of the sun". Most of us believe that the sun does not move, but we STILL use that type of language. It is just normal standard language that everyone has used throughout history (including bible days).

I already gave you an example from scripture of this. I showed you where it says the "sun became hot". Do you take that literally to mean that the sun sometimes loses its heat and has to reheat itself? If you use the "sun moved" argument you would have to be consistent with the verse that says "the sun became hot". Context shows us that at certain times of the day the sun was hotter ON THE EARTH. The sun itself does not become hotter or colder during night and day. If you can accept that the sun does not actually vary in heat during night and day, maybe you can accept that when it says the sun moved, it actually means that this is what it looks like from the Earth's perspective."

I will use another example. Does the Bible use the word "Trinity" NO! Using your argument we would have to say that there is no trinity. However, the scripture is full of the evidence of a Trinity. Although it does not use the word "trinity" we can see the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit regularly in action throughout OT and NT.

 

[Strangelove]

DOCTOR STRANGELOVE said:

My statement was:

Whenever there is any scripture that COULD be describing the movement/non movement of the Earth/sun.....its ALWAYS the earth thats stationary and the sun thats moving.

Hi Doc

I did present my answer (twice now). However, you have not replied to it. I will paste it again:

I've made my position on the bible literal Vs metaphorical thing clear. I said it doesnt matter.

You can either agree with my statement, or reject it. Whats it to be?

This is the statement.

Whenever there is any scripture that COULD be describing the movement/non movement of the Earth/sun.....its ALWAYS the earth thats stationary and the sun thats moving.

Do you agree with the statement or not?

It's reallt simple Chingy its either a yes or a no.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

I've made my position on the bible literal Vs metaphorical thing clear. I said it doesnt matter.

You can either agree with my statement, or reject it. Whats it to be?

This is the statement.

Whenever there is any scripture that COULD be describing the movement/non movement of the Earth/sun.....its ALWAYS the earth thats stationary and the sun thats moving.

Do you agree with the statement or not?

It's reallt simple Chingy its either a yes or a no.

The answer is irrelevant because it does not prove that the Earth does not move. The bible does say that the sun moves, but not clear it says that the Earth does not move.

If you are being so word perfect, likewise, please answer my question in relation to the scripture I previously quoted, do you believe that the Sun is hot and cold? Does the scripture ever say that the Sun is always hot?

Deuce!

 

[Strangelove]

The answer is irrelevant because it does not prove that the Earth does not move. The bible does say that the sun moves, but not clear it says that the Earth does not move.

I'm just saying the bible never says the Earth moves but says the sun does. Is that so hard to agree with?

The bible also says the world is stablished that it cannot be moved.

The bible also says that the earth hangs upon nothing and that it has foundations.

The bible says the sun has a circuit.

Josh 10:12 also teaches a stationary Earth unless you add to Gods explanation of what happened that day.

In all instances, if you had to choose whether the bible teaches a geocentric or heliocentric system....

....you would have to choose geocentric.

There is ZERO support for helio model in the bible.

f you are being so word perfect, likewise, please answer my question in relation to the scripture I previously quoted, do you believe that the Sun is hot and cold? Does the scripture ever say that the Sun is always hot?

No I dont believe the sun is hot and cold.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

I'm just saying the bible never says the Earth moves but says the sun does. Is that so hard to agree with?

The bible also says the world is stablished that it cannot be moved.

The bible also says that the earth hangs upon nothing and that it has foundations.

The bible says the sun has a circuit.

Josh 10:12 also teaches a stationary Earth unless you add to Gods explanation of what happened that day.

In all instances, if you had to choose whether the bible teaches a geocentric or heliocentric system....

....you would have to choose geocentric.

There is ZERO support for helio model in the bible.



No I dont believe the sun is hot and cold.

That's good that you don't believe that the sun is hot and cold re the scripture verse I gave!

All I was trying to show is that we need to be sensible when reading the scriptures. God spoke to us in ways that we could understand due to our limited technologies of the time. God told us that the Earth was central to the Universe in the way He moved in the Universe. His plans and purposes focussed on man, therefore the Earth = centrality. God spoke to man on that basis and man understood that everything (in importance terms) revolved around the Earth. Therefore, man understood that the sun moved round the Earth in appearances.

Regarding the bible quotes:
I know in Greek that a word for world is cosmos which refers to the "global scheme of things" not the Earth. I would be interested to know if it is similar with Hebrew. Yes God has stablished or established the ability of the Earth to govern and sustain itself. It cannot be moved spiritually or any other way, because God reigns on the Earth. He controls everything. "The Earth is the Lord's and everything in it"

You may say that this is my interpretation. You are right. The point is that the quote you gave is not 100% certain that it is talking about the Earth not orbiting.

"the Earth hangs upon nothing". That is right. God spoke into being the Earth out of nothing. He created all things out of nothingness. So, in a sense the Earth hangs on nothing because God made it hang on nothing before the stars, sun and moon were made. It continues to hang on nothing because everything we see and hear is transient, will not last. "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my word will never pass away" the invisible realm is far more real, it is eternal. "the sky rolled up like a scroll". So, in a sense the Earth (though it orbit) effectively orbits on nothing, so therefore hangs on nothing.

What is a foundation? Same sense as the Earth has been established by God, so therefore IS secure.

The circuit of the sun. Again the same answer I gave on this before. ie that is how it appears from those who use natural eyes.

Josh 10:12-13 does not say the Earth was stationary. It says the sun stood still. You are reading something into the text.

 

[Strangelove]

That's good that you don't believe that the sun is hot and cold re the scripture verse I gave!

All I was trying to show is that we need to be sensible when reading the scriptures. God spoke to us in ways that we could understand due to our limited technologies of the time. God told us that the Earth was central to the Universe in the way He moved in the Universe. His plans and purposes focussed on man, therefore the Earth = centrality. God spoke to man on that basis and man understood that everything (in importance terms) revolved around the Earth. Therefore, man understood that the sun moved round the Earth in appearances.

Regarding the bible quotes:
I know in Greek that a word for world is cosmos which refers to the "global scheme of things" not the Earth. I would be interested to know if it is similar with Hebrew. Yes God has stablished or established the ability of the Earth to govern and sustain itself. It cannot be moved spiritually or any other way, because God reigns on the Earth. He controls everything. "The Earth is the Lord's and everything in it"

You may say that this is my interpretation. You are right. The point is that the quote you gave is not 100% certain that it is talking about the Earth not orbiting.

"the Earth hangs upon nothing". That is right. God spoke into being the Earth out of nothing. He created all things out of nothingness. So, in a sense the Earth hangs on nothing because God made it hang on nothing before the stars, sun and moon were made. It continues to hang on nothing because everything we see and hear is transient, will not last. "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my word will never pass away" the invisible realm is far more real, it is eternal. "the sky rolled up like a scroll". So, in a sense the Earth (though it orbit) effectively orbits on nothing, so therefore hangs on nothing.

What is a foundation? Same sense as the Earth has been established by God, so therefore IS secure.

The circuit of the sun. Again the same answer I gave on this before. ie that is how it appears from those who use natural eyes.

What I'm reading into the text is what the text obviously says. I'm taking the plain meaning. This is being sensible with Gods Word.

You have to twist the texts to mean something different than the plain meaning.

There is no reason to believe the Earth moves. Scripture doesnt say it...it says the opposite (if you take the plain meaning).

Josh 10:12-13 does not say the Earth was stationary. It says the sun stood still. You are reading something into the text.

If the sun stood still in the sky then the Earth is not spinning on its axis.

Unless you say that the earth stopped spinning in that miracle. Is that what you want to say?

 

[Muskokaman]

Show me 3 piecves of scripture that prove what your saying

 

[Muskokaman]

I agree, and the universe centre is the stationary Earth. The sun orbits it.

Doc. Seriously get a science degree man what you propose is utter lunacy.

So you reject 500 years of astronomy because of your misunderstanding of certain scriptures?

 

[Muskokaman]

Why throw a red herring in the pot. Does it accomplish anything other than pointless futile debate?

Our earth orbits around our sun which orbits around the galactic center of our galaxy which happens to have a lot of mass ergo why the galaxy stays together and doesn't fly apart.
If you want to have a debate on something unexplainable why not black holes?
Doc. I have been studying Astrophysics and Astronomy for a long time and I thought all this medieval malarky was gone out long ago. I can't believe someone like yourself with all your smarts would try to uphold a position like this. It astounds me.

 

[Strangelove]

Show me 3 piecves of scripture that prove what your saying

Try this thread its full of scripture that supports the geocentric model.

LINK ::: Biblical Geocentricity

 

[Strangelove]

Doc. Seriously get a science degree man what you propose is utter lunacy.

So you reject 500 years of astronomy because of your misunderstanding of certain scriptures?

I reject 500 years of hypothetical science. Starting with the sun worshipper Copernicus and continued by the witch and murderer Johannes Kepler

Astronomy has never proved the earth moves. Ask Tychoe Brahe.

 

[Muskokaman]

Try this thread its full of scripture that supports the geocentric model.

LINK ::: Biblical Geocentricity

So what does a bunch of rhetoric that you and luvthe lord have to do with scientific fact seriously show me scripture that directly and irrefutably corroberates your hypothesis!

 

[Strangelove]

Why throw a red herring in the pot. Does it accomplish anything other than pointless futile debate?

Our earth orbits around our sun which orbits around the galactic center of our galaxy which happens to have a lot of mass ergo why the galaxy stays together and doesn't fly apart.

You have nothing that proves this.

If you want to have a debate on something unexplainable why not black holes?
Doc. I have been studying Astrophysics and Astronomy for a long time and I thought all this medieval malarky was gone out long ago. I can't believe someone like yourself with all your smarts would try to uphold a position like this. It astounds me.

Maybe you should study geocentrism, specifically the modified Tychonian model before you make a complete fool of yourself.

"We know that the difference between a heliocentric theory and a geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that such a difference has no physical significance."

"Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is "right" and the Ptolemaic (stationary Earth) theory is "wrong" in any meaningful sense. The two theories...are physically equivalent to one another."

- World class Astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, the man who coined the phrase “Big Bang theory”

 

[Strangelove]

So what does a bunch of rhetoric that you and luvthe lord have to do with scientific fact seriously show me scripture that directly and irrefutably corroberates your hypothesis!

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Kindly explain how these verses work in a creation where the Earth spins on it's axis and orbits the sun?

 

[Muskokaman]

I reject 500 years of hypothetical science. Starting with the sun worshipper Copernicus and continued by the witch and murderer Johannes Kepler

Astronomy has never proved the earth moves. Ask Tychoe Brahe.

If I smash you on your toe with a hammer are you gonna refute that or say it was just stubbing your toe COME ON MAN give the Lord a little credit, IT'S a BIG Universe and its make up and origin have little to do with spiritual matters. Enjoy the wonders of the Universe.
Jesus said "In heaven there are many rooms if it were not so I would not have told you"

Yes astronomy has proved it if you deny it that's your ball of yarn to unravel!

 

[Muskokaman]

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Kindly explain how these verses work in a creation where the Earth spins on it's axis and orbits the sun?

These verse have nothing to do with creation RED HERRING.

God stopped the rotation of the earth so Joshua could complete his battle.

If this is all the evidence you have Doc. GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!

 

[Strangelove]

So what does a bunch of rhetoric that you and luvthe lord have to do with scientific fact seriously show me scripture that directly and irrefutably corroberates your hypothesis!

Is the theory of evilution scientific fact too?

 

[Strangelove]

These verse have nothing to do with creation RED HERRING.

We're not talking about creation...we're talking about the stationary Earth. But while you mention it, what was the earth orbiting before the sun was created?

God stopped the rotation of the earth so Joshua could complete his battle.

Ok, this is what I'm saying. You have to add to Gods Word to make your theory stick.

Did the moon stop in its orbit? Or was it only the Earth that stopped spinning?

If this is all the evidence you have Doc. GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!

You are offended. It's quite normal. You were like this when I told you Rome aint the whore.

 

[Muskokaman]

You have nothing that proves this.



Maybe you should study geocentrism, specifically the modified Tychonian model before you make a complete fool of yourself.

"We know that the difference between a heliocentric theory and a geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that such a difference has no physical significance."

"Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is "right" and the Ptolemaic (stationary Earth) theory is "wrong" in any meaningful sense. The two theories...are physically equivalent to one another."

- World class Astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, the man who coined the phrase “Big Bang theory”

The only one here making a fool of themselves is you with this ridiculous argument you put forth.
You put all your eggs in one basket because of your strong desire to refute all things you deem not of scripture.
Verily I say unto you the world revolves around the sun or Son if you prefer and to try and make this a debate about theoretical science is proposterous.
You refute all knowledge given to man because of an ill founded belief in Tychonian theory.

Sorry Doc. Wrong

 

[Strangelove]

If I smash you on your toe with a hammer are you gonna refute that or say it was just stubbing your toe COME ON MAN give the Lord a little credit, IT'S a BIG Universe and its make up and origin have little to do with spiritual matters. Enjoy the wonders of the Universe.
Jesus said "In heaven there are many rooms if it were not so I would not have told you"

Yes astronomy has proved it if you deny it that's your ball of yarn to unravel!

It matters not if the Earth is the centre of the universe....or the sun....or the moon...or mercury....or the international space station. You would still see exactly the same things from Earh. So no, astronomy has proved nothing.

Try not to get emotional Musky.