The Bible: Literal Fact

[JohnChingford2007]

The whole of the bible was written by men "inspired by the Holy Spirit". Jesus did not write anything. Whatever Jesus said was written by "men". Using your logic, we can decide what to believe and what not to believe by simply using our mortal minds? Sorry, but you are walking on a very slippery road. You need to acknowledge that you are a mere mortal and place your full trust in Jesus. Jesus endorsed the whole bible in many places by quoting the scriptures. Therefore, if you surrender to Jesus, He will lead you to trust the whole Bible. "lean not on your own understanding".

 

[resurrection33]

The whole of the bible was written by men "inspired by the Holy Spirit". Jesus did not write anything. Whatever Jesus said was written by "men". Using your logic, we can decide what to believe and what not to believe by simply using our mortal minds? Sorry, but you are walking on a very slippery road. You need to acknowledge that you are a mere mortal and place your full trust in Jesus. Jesus endorsed the whole bible in many places by quoting the scriptures. Therefore, if you surrender to Jesus, He will lead you to trust the whole Bible. "lean not on your own understanding".

Some people believe that, some don’t.

I believe the Bible is an accurate account of what happened.

However, I do not believe Paul was always correct in his opinions, though I believe he was a great man.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

R33. How can you (a mere man) decide what is true and what is not true. God inspired Paul to write holy scripture. You are actually putting yourself at a higher plane than Paul. You (a mere man) are acting like a god depending upon your own (limited) understanding to decide what is truth and what is not. It is time for you to repent and confess this pride and humble yourself before God confessing that you are a mere mortal and that the Word Of God is MUCH MORE reliable than your limited thinking.

This may sound harsh, but harsh words need to be said because you are putting yourself in a very dangerous position of rebellion towards God. You may not realise that this is what you are doing, but by rejecting any scripture, you are rejecting God who wrote it. I say these things out of concern and compassion towards you. I speak these things out of a heart of love.

I wrote the above words because of the things said by R33 on a number of other threads where he persistently kept saying that Paul's writings (in the Bible) were wrong in the things he wrote because R33 seemed to know better than Paul about right and wrong. Please see the threads:

We are no longer under law ........

and

women should shuddup .......

 

[JohnChingford2007]

Earth is not a planet. Planet means wanderer.

Hi Dr S

I did not immediately realise what you were implying until you mentioned your belief in Geocentricity.

Until you mentioned Geocentricity (on another thread) I did not know what that term meant. I have now read through a number of articles explaining it. Sorry, but I cannot accept geocentricity as being of logical sense to me. It cannot be proved and denying Geocentricity does not deny the literal wordings of scripture. For those who don't know what I am talking about, Geoc....... tell us that the bible teaches that the Earth does not move and that the whole universe rotates around the Earth. So instead of the Earth spinning, it is the universe that spins.

Actually the Bible does not specifically and unequivocally teach that the Earth does not move. There are verses that could be interpreted to mean that the Earth does not move, but they are vague and would need to be read out of context. As always, we need to get our theology correct by comparing scripture with scripture, comparing the WHOLE teaching of the Bible. For example, today we might say "wow the sun was hot today". The fact is that the sun is always hot, it is just that it "felt" hot today because the weather was such.

Here is a good link showing the errors of geocentricity more detailed.

Geocentricity and Creation

 

[Strangelove]

Hi Dr S

I did not immediately realise what you were implying until you mentioned your belief in Geocentricity.

Until you mentioned Geocentricity (on another thread) I did not know what that term meant. I have now read through a number of articles explaining it. Sorry, but I cannot accept geocentricity as being of logical sense to me. It cannot be proved and denying Geocentricity does not deny the literal wordings of scripture. For those who don't know what I am talking about, Geoc....... tell us that the bible teaches that the Earth does not move and that the whole universe rotates around the Earth. So instead of the Earth spinning, it is the universe that spins.

Actually the Bible does not specifically and unequivocally teach that the Earth does not move. There are verses that could be interpreted to mean that the Earth does not move, but they are vague and would need to be read out of context. As always, we need to get our theology correct by comparing scripture with scripture, comparing the WHOLE teaching of the Bible. For example, today we might say "wow the sun was hot today". The fact is that the sun is always hot, it is just that it "felt" hot today because the weather was such.

Here is a good link showing the errors of geocentricity more detailed.

Geocentricity and Creation

Neither yourself nor your article offer any defence of heliocentrism. The only defence is to try and squash the OFFENCE of geocentrism.

Example. The bible says the earth is stablished that it cannot be moved. The only defence is to try and make that mean something other than geocentrism.

It would be great if you could provide a verse that says...the earth spinneth on its axis that it never stops......but you dont have that unfortunately.

Theres not a scrap of scientific evidence the earth moves:

Yahoo News to Creationists : You Lose (Heliocentricity Vs Geocentricity Scientific Debate)

And the bible ONLY supports geocentrism:

Biblical Geocentricity

 

[AnandaHya]

Neither yourself nor your article offer any defence of heliocentrism. The only defence is to try and squash the OFFENCE of geocentrism.

Example. The bible says the earth is stablished that it cannot be moved. The only defence is to try and make that mean something other than geocentrism.

It would be great if you could provide a verse that says...the earth spinneth on its axis that it never stops......but you dont have that unfortunately.

Theres not a scrap of scientific evidence the earth moves:

Yahoo News to Creationists : You Lose (Heliocentricity Vs Geocentricity Scientific Debate)

And the bible ONLY supports geocentrism:

Biblical Geocentricity

that doesn't prove anything but your opinion. I clicked on the links expecting Biblical proof and scriptures to support your views but I was profoundly disappointed.

so the challenge is to reveal to you scripture verses about the Earth spinning on an axis or orbiting the sun? Ok I'll look into it and get back to you.

My challenge to you is: Give me a list of scriptures that says it does not and we can examine them IN CONTEXT and determine what God reveals to His people.

PS. your jump in the air thing can be scientifically explained and proven by a few simple observations but anyways....

For example if you jump in a moving car, do you go anyway? yet the car is moving, how is that possible?

 

[Strangelove]

that doesn't prove anything but your opinion. I clicked on the links expecting Biblical proof and scriptures to support your views but I was profoundly disappointed.

so the challenge is to reveal to you scripture verses about the Earth spinning on an axis or orbiting the sun? Ok I'll look into it and get back to you.

My challenge to you is: Give me a list of scriptures that says it does not and we can examine them IN CONTEXT and determine what God reveals to His people.

PS. your jump in the air thing can be scientifically explained and proven by a few simple observations but anyways....

For example if you jump in a moving car, do you go anyway? yet the car is moving, how is that possible?

It's all in the threads I've linked to.

Fact is. Whenever there is any scripture that COULD be describing the movement/non movement of the Earth/sun.....its ALWAYS the earth thats stationary and the sun thats moving.

So theres that and....

Theres no scientific proof that the earth moves.

If your interested....read the threads. Like you said.....do the research.

 

[Strangelove]

Cup of ruin does a pretty stand up job in this thread from CC, years ago:

LINK ::: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/2712-fixed-earth.html

 

[AnandaHya]

Theres no scientific proof that the earth moves.

yea there is.

most of the posters don't have very much science background, but I don't really want to get into it.

I think people are reading their beliefs into the Bible when they state the Earth is stationary.

its kind of like the question "when did God create angels?" most of the time all you get is conjecture.

if I get a chance I'll look into the threads

 

[Strangelove]

yea there is.

most of the posters don't have very much science background, but I don't really want to get into it.

I think people are reading their beliefs into the Bible when they state the Earth is stationary.

its kind of like the question "when did God create angels?" most of the time all you get is conjecture.

if I get a chance I'll look into the threads

Great, you might learn something new.

Dont be ashamed of the truth when you find it.

 

[AnandaHya]

Great, you might learn something new.

Dont be ashamed of the truth when you find it.

don't be ashamed of admitting that you have been deceived when God reveals it to you.

I've skimmed the threads, nothing has changed my stance.

I think I'll read the Bible and see what God says about it.

 

[Strangelove]

don't be ashamed of admitting that you have been deceived when God reveals it to you.

I've skimmed the threads, nothing has changed my stance.

I think I'll read the Bible and see what God says about it.

Ok its a deal.

God should have the final word. He's the one who hangeth the world upon nothing.

 

[Strangelove]

I think I'll read the Bible and see what God says about it.

tell me when you get to Joshua 10:12.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

Isaiah 40:22
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." which means that it has always been known that the Earth was not flat.

Regarding the sun moving round the Earth, there is a verse that COULD indicate the sun does not move. In fact this passage is also used by Geocentrists to say that it proves the sun does move. I would like to turn it round.

Psalm 19:
Verse 1-2 "The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge".

verse 4 "In them He has placed a tent for the sun"

A tent (or tabernacle) for the sun. Does that not indicate a FIXED place for the sun?

I agree that almost the whole bible states the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun, but is that a scientific statement from God or is He speaking to us in terms that can be easily understood by us. For example:

Exodus 16:21
"They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt."

So the sun reduces its temperature and then reheats itself? If we used the Geo.... arguments we would have to say that the bible teaches that the sun is hot and cold. The context is clear. At certain times of the day the heat of the sun on Earth melted the food. So when it says the sun moved, it is in relation to the Earth as the central point of God's dealings. Although the Earth moves, it doesn't seem like it does. For example, my town centre does not move from its place. I always take the same direction to get there, so it seems that the Earth is STILL. When we look in the Heavens it seems that they move and we don't. The bible is not stating scientific fact but stating what can be observed with the natural eyes.

Clearly telescopes, space probes, planning air flights etc have proved that the Earth is spinning.

God bless
John

 

[AnandaHya]

I think Paul was a great man, but I don’t think any man, other than Jesus, is perfect.

Paul might not have been perfect but the BIBLE is infalliable though the readers understanding might not be. GOD inspired and told the authors what to write and would have corrected them if they had it wrong. that is why so many of the other things found in the Dead Sea Scrolls were not included because the people through prayer and divine revelation was shown that those other works were not what God wanted us to have as a handbook on how to live life and construct and instruct His body of believers.

 

[Strangelove]

Isaiah 40:22
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." which means that it has always been known that the Earth was not flat.

Describes the spherical nature of the globe agreed?

Regarding the sun moving round the Earth, there is a verse that COULD indicate the sun does not move. In fact this passage is also used by Geocentrists to say that it proves the sun does move. I would like to turn it round.

Psalm 19:
Verse 1-2 "The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge".

verse 4 "In them He has placed a tent for the sun"

A tent (or tabernacle) for the sun. Does that not indicate a FIXED place for the sun?

Well, if you read on you find out what the fixed tabernacle is....its the fixed circuit of the sun which it runs:

(Psalms 19:4) Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

(Psalms 19:5) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

(Psalms 19:6) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

I agree that almost the whole bible states the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun, but is that a scientific statement from God or is He speaking to us in terms that can be easily understood by us. For example:

Exodus 16:21
"They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt."

So the sun reduces its temperature and then reheats itself? If we used the Geo.... arguments we would have to say that the bible teaches that the sun is hot and cold.

The geo argument doesnt say that. It says the earth doesnt move.

The context is clear. At certain times of the day the heat of the sun on Earth melted the food. So when it says the sun moved, it is in relation to the Earth as the central point of God's dealings.

I'm glad you say the earth is the central point of God's dealings...its also the central point of Gods creation. Really central.

Although the Earth moves, it doesn't seem like it does. For example, my town centre does not move from its place. I always take the same direction to get there, so it seems that the Earth is STILL. When we look in the Heavens it seems that they move and we don't. The bible is not stating scientific fact but stating what can be observed with the natural eyes.

Yes in essence the Earth seems to always be at rest. Cuz it is.

Ya the bible uses turns of phrase sometimes. I got no problem with that. But then you get to Josh 10:12 and its like.....oh.

Clearly telescopes, space probes, planning air flights etc have proved that the Earth is spinning.

Uhm....no....they havn't proved that. But heres a nice view of the Earth from a satellite in space:

LINK ::: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-REzr7HB9E&feature=player_embedded

Remarkably stationary looking aint it?

Before you decide to get into the science, I suggest you read this thread if your really interested. Physics professors and such like cannot prove scientifically that the earth moves.

Yahoo News to Creationists : You Lose (Heliocentricity Vs Geocentricity Scientific Debate)

 

[mememe]

So lets just assume your correct for a second, Imagine how fast the sun is moving around the earth. The earth moves around the sun at a speed of approximately 100,000 kmh and it takes 365 days to do one lap. But according to you this is a lie and really the sun moves around the earth, so we can assume you mean the sun is moving at 100,000 kmh x 365 because it does it in one 24 hour cycle, so the sun is really moving at 3,650,000 kmh around the earth. Everything further past the sun moves at increasing speed relative to earth because it would need to in order to appear in a relatively fixed position. What are stars? how are they moving so fast around the earth? How far away are they, roughly? Imagine for a second how fast they are traveling.

 

[Strangelove]

So lets just assume your correct for a second, Imagine how fast the sun is moving around the earth. The earth moves around the sun at a speed of approximately 100,000 kmh and it takes 365 days to do one lap. But according to you this is a lie and really the sun moves around the earth, so we can assume you mean the sun is moving at 100,000 kmh x 365 because it does it in one 24 hour cycle, so the sun is really moving at 3,650,000 kmh around the earth. Everything further past the sun moves at increasing speed relative to earth because it would need to in order to appear in a relatively fixed position. What are stars? how are they moving so fast around the earth? How far away are they, roughly? Imagine for a second how fast they are traveling.

You would have to know how far away everything is to do your math.

We dont know.

And dont even bother with stellar parallax. Just read this thread if your interested:

Yahoo News to Creationists : You Lose (Heliocentricity Vs Geocentricity Scientific Debate)

 

[shroom2]

Neither yourself nor your article offer any defence of heliocentrism. The only defence is to try and squash the OFFENCE of geocentrism.

Example. The bible says the earth is stablished that it cannot be moved. The only defence is to try and make that mean something other than geocentrism.

It would be great if you could provide a verse that says...the earth spinneth on its axis that it never stops......but you dont have that unfortunately.

Theres not a scrap of scientific evidence the earth moves:

Yahoo News to Creationists : You Lose (Heliocentricity Vs Geocentricity Scientific Debate)

And the bible ONLY supports geocentrism:

Biblical Geocentricity

Wut? You believe the universe rotates around the earth?

You can't be serious, strangelove.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

Doc

I had a look at that video. Actually these type of videos prove nothing. It is easy to doctor videos to make it appear as you want them to. For example, is it not possible that the satellite was programmed to travel at exactly the same speed as Earth, to make it look still. Besides, some of the image did seem to shake slightly and also (in some places) give the impression of partial spin. As I say, could be doctored. I would also ask, is it possible for a sattellite to "hang" perfectly still over the Earth? Another thought is that if the galaxy is moving around the Earth, wouldn't the satellite move with it, even if it was hanging still? If the satellite is simply hanging but moving with a spinning galaxy, wouldn't the Earth appear to spin too?

Sorry, too many possibilities which may nullify the video's claim?