1 John 2:19

[GWH]

You’ll know you are saved because the Holy Spirit will bear witness (confirm/establish) with your spirit (innermost being, NOT human reasoning or logic) that you are saved. It’s not a logical dialogue, it’s a spiritual understanding and knowing… the Holy Spirit speaks directly to your spirit and you know it is True, you are saved.

For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.8.15,Rom.8.16&version=NKJV

If you are not sure if you are saved, simply talk to God… repent of all your sins, receive the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ. His Blood removes your sins and His Body gives you the Righteousness of God. All your fear, guilt and shame is gone.

You are sealed with God’s Holy Spirit, get water baptized as an outward public confession of your faith in Jesus Christ and evidence you are in blood covenant with Him.

Ask the Father, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Gift of the Holy Spirit to be released inside of you and be filled with the Holy Spirit - the power of God to witness of Jesus Christ in the Earth.

Study God’s Word with the Holy Spirit… He will teach you.

The HS bears witness that we walk by faith, not by sight, and by hope, not by having. The HS who inspired 1John 2:9 also inspired Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:35-39, Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

The issue is not believing you ARE saved, but rather knowing you WILL not leave. IOW, in order to have the correct understanding, it is necessary to harmonize ALL of GW regarding it, and GW/the HS taught me the categories listed in post #5. You will note that 1John 2:19 refers to category "d", whereas the 16 Scriptures I just cited refer to category "e".

 

[Edify]

Does that verse mean that all people who leave the faith were not believers?

Absolutely not! Why is a false prophet/teacher there in the first place?!? To deceive, of course! There's 3 reasons such a one leaves out:
1. He couldn't deceive anyone, which is hardly never.
2. He leaves, because his job there is done. Seeds were sowed, & tares were grown. He deceived enough people to shipwreck their faith. When he leaves, he either takes his "disciples" with him to split the church or leaves them there to destroy others.
3. He's caught & thrown out, which is not done enough.
There could be someone just being there to build his reputation long enough to go someplace else & destroy the next work. I've seen young ministers do this & wasn't ready for a work of their own yet & totally split churches.
I've seen it happen twice in a row to the same church, splitting it twice.
Novice ministers should NEVER be sent to pastor his own church. He will always wreck it with his own ambition & pride.

WARNING! Many are out today to fulfil their own ambitions, so be careful!

 

[Lafftur]

The HS bears witness that we walk by faith, not by sight, and by hope, not by having. The HS who inspired 1John 2:9 also inspired Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:35-39, Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

The issue is not believing you ARE saved, but rather knowing you WILL not leave. IOW, in order to have the correct understanding, it is necessary to harmonize ALL of GW regarding it, and GW/the HS taught me the categories listed in post #5. You will note that 1John 2:19 refers to category "d", whereas the 16 Scriptures I just cited refer to category "e".

It is a very important issue to believe and know you are saved.

The Holy Spirit will bear witness with your spirit… if anyone doubts then, ask the Holy Spirit for the Truth of your current spiritual condition… ask in humility and desiring the Truth.

It’s never a surprise if I am operating in my flesh… that I don’t want to go to church or read my Bible… the flesh is always wanting to leave the faith because it is contrary to God…. but, my spirit man greatly desires God and never wants to leave Him.

We have to grow up in our faith in Christ which we do with God’s Word and Holy Spirit.

Your Post #5 gives various situations how our flesh is wrestling with our spirit man to stay or to go…

Stay with Jesus Christ no matter what!!!

 

[GWH]

It is a very important issue to believe and know you are saved.

The Holy Spirit will bear witness with your spirit… if anyone doubts then, ask the Holy Spirit for the Truth of your current spiritual condition… ask in humility and desiring the Truth.

It’s never a surprise if I am operating in my flesh… that I don’t want to go to church or read my Bible… the flesh is always wanting to leave the faith because it is contrary to God…. but, my spirit man greatly desires God and never wants to leave Him.

We have to grow up in our faith in Christ which we do with God’s Word and Holy Spirit.

Your Post #5 gives various situations how our flesh is wrestling with our spirit man to stay or to go…

Stay with Jesus Christ no matter what!!!

May I suggest you read, ponder and learn the Scriptures I cited before giving a knee-jerk reaction?
Then discuss each Scripture one at a time, stating why you disagree with it if you will. Thanks!

 

[Edify]

1. Absolutely not! Why is a false prophet/teacher there in the first place?!? To deceive, of course! There's 3 reasons such a one leaves out:
   1. He couldn't deceive anyone, which is hardly never.
   2. He leaves, because his job there is done. Seeds were sowed, & tares were grown. He deceived enough people to shipwreck their faith. When he leaves, he either takes his "disciples" with him to split the church or leaves them there to destroy others.
   3. He's caught & thrown out, which is not done enough.
   There could be someone just being there to build his reputation long enough to go someplace else & destroy the next work. I've seen young ministers do this & wasn't ready for a work of their own yet & totally split churches.
   I've seen it happen twice in a row to the same church, splitting it twice.
   Novice ministers should NEVER be sent to pastor his own church. He will always wreck it with his own ambition & pride.
   
   WARNING! Many are out today to fulfil their own ambitions, so be careful!

   
   Disagree
   1. [IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/s/160/160454.jpg?1527176469[/IMG]

Did you get even yet? Or is there more you want to do?

 

[Edify]

1. 
   
   
   Disagree
   1. [IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/s/160/160454.jpg?1527176469[/IMG]

Did you get even yet? Or is there more you want to do?

I didn't want to accuse you, I wanted you to admit it.
Thanks for telling us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Saved is a misused word that people really don't take the time to fully understand or define. Saved out of doesn't mean saved into. For example, the people of Israel were saved out of Egypt, but many of those were not saved into the promised land due to unbelief. That is a warning to all of us.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:5​

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)​

 

[p_rehbein]

............never mind...... sigh

 

[Lafftur]

May I suggest you read, ponder and learn the Scriptures I cited before giving a knee-jerk reaction?
Then discuss each Scripture one at a time, stating why you disagree with it if you will. Thanks!

Please, copy and paste a scripture you would like me to discuss with you.

 

[Falconn007]

Does that verse mean that all people who leave the faith were not believers?

It means they never had Faith in Spirit to begin with, INSTEAD they place their FATE in the hands of carnal - mankind.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Witness... to this truthful testimony :

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. / Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ / Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

John 6:64-66
However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.) / Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.” / From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, / who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— / and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. / It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. / Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Matthew 13:20-21
The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. / But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Luke 8:13
The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. / And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. / It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.

Jude 1:4
For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:30
Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

Galatians 2:4
This issue arose because some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Luke 12:46
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 

[GWH]

It is a very important issue to believe and know you are saved.

The Holy Spirit will bear witness with your spirit… if anyone doubts then, ask the Holy Spirit for the Truth of your current spiritual condition… ask in humility and desiring the Truth.

It’s never a surprise if I am operating in my flesh… that I don’t want to go to church or read my Bible… the flesh is always wanting to leave the faith because it is contrary to God…. but, my spirit man greatly desires God and never wants to leave Him.

We have to grow up in our faith in Christ which we do with God’s Word and Holy Spirit.

Your Post #5 gives various situations how our flesh is wrestling with our spirit man to stay or to go…

Stay with Jesus Christ no matter what!!!

Again, belief is biblical, and confidence is Scriptural, but not certainty, if that is what you mean by "know",
per 2Cor. 5:7 & Rom. 8:24, 1Cor. 13:12.

And I hope you realize that urging people to stay with JC implies the possibility of apostasy.

 

[Lafftur]

Again, belief is biblical, and confidence is Scriptural, but not certainty, if that is what you mean by "know",
per 2Cor. 5:7 & Rom. 8:24, 1Cor. 13:12.

And I hope you realize that urging people to stay with JC implies the possibility of apostasy.

Yes, by “know” I mean “absolute certainty.”

I will always encourage everyone to stay with Jesus Christ.

 

[GWH]

Yes, by “know” I mean “absolute certainty.”

I will always encourage everyone to stay with Jesus Christ.

Then you contradict the GW I cited, which you should NOT enjoy!
You did not respond to my accusation that you are teaching the possibility of apostasy.

 

[Winslow89]

That means no one can have confidence they are/were saved until they die before/without leaving!

Can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[Lafftur]

Then you contradict the GW I cited, which you should NOT enjoy!
You did not respond to my accusation that you are teaching the possibility of apostasy.

Hmmm…. Let’s see… Satan is the accuser of the brethren and he quoted scripture… of course, it was always twisted and out of context…

Then, Jesus Christ would have to quote the Truth of scripture back to Satan….

So, let’s go look at your scriptures…

2 Corinthians 5:7:
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Cor.5.7&version=NKJV

Romans 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.8.24&version=NKJV

1Corinthians 13:12

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor.13.12&version=NKJV

All your scriptures are taken out of context.

My turn….. Yes, we can “know” by the Holy Spirit…..

It is written…

But as it is written:“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...13,1Cor.2.14,1Cor.2.15,1Cor.2.16&version=NKJV

 

[GWH]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I don't see anything to explain, because it is obvious that if someone who thought they were saved is deemed never to have been
saved if they leave, then they cannot know they are saved until they die having never left. It is pure semantics!

 

[GWH]

Hmmm…. Let’s see… Satan is the accuser of the brethren and he quoted scripture… of course, it was always twisted and out of context…

Then, Jesus Christ would have to quote the Truth of scripture back to Satan….

So, let’s go look at your scriptures…

2 Corinthians 5:7:
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Cor.5.7&version=NKJV

Romans 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.8.24&version=NKJV

1Corinthians 13:12

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor.13.12&version=NKJV

All your scriptures are taken out of context.

My turn….. Yes, we can “know” by the Holy Spirit…..

It is written…

But as it is written:“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...13,1Cor.2.14,1Cor.2.15,1Cor.2.16&version=NKJV

Uh, it does not suffice merely to say my interpretation of GW is out of context without providing the context you think is needed, whereas the verses you cited does not even say we know/have certainty/sight/proof/infallible understanding of anything. Instead, they mean that we cannot imagine how wonderful heaven will be and that the Spirit will teach us spiritual truths.

So try again if you want.

 

[Winslow89]

I don't see anything to explain, because it is obvious that if someone who thought they were saved is deemed never to have been
saved if they leave, then they cannot know they are saved until they die having never left. It is pure semantics!

Ok

 

[Deuteronomy]

Light is shed by this verse upon two important doctrines: the perseverance of the saints and the nature of the church. ‘He who stands firm to the end will be saved’ (Mark 13:13), not because ~salvation is the reward of endurance~, but because endurance is the hallmark of the saved. If the false teachers had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. This is stated as a principle. Those who belong to us stay with us. Future and final perseverance is the ultimate test of a past participation in Christ (cf. Heb. 3:14). ‘Those who fall away’, on the other hand, ‘have never been thoroughly imbued with the knowledge of Christ but only had a slight and passing taste of it’ (Calvin).​

​

I hate this kind of Christian reasoning. Both are true; they are not exclusive.

Hello ChristRoseFromTheDead, for clarity's sake, please explain what you mean a little more thoroughly, especially why you believe that salvation is something that we receive as a reward for our endurance, and how both of these can be true.

Thanks!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Lafftur]

Uh, it does not suffice merely to say my interpretation of GW is out of context without providing the context you think is needed, whereas the verses you cited does not even say we know/have certainty/sight/proof/infallible understanding of anything. Instead, they mean that we cannot imagine how wonderful heaven will be and that the Spirit will teach us spiritual truths.

So try again if you want.

It’s very sad that you don’t know with certainty that you are saved… where is your faith?

The Holy Spirit will bear witness to your spirit if you are saved and reveal what God has prepared for those that love Him.

Just go ask God, in humility with all your heart seek Him and He will answer you and establish you in your faith in Him and all His promises.