Free will verses permissive will

[Jordon]

Well food day again folks

Permissive will verses Free will

Galatians 5:16–17:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are unable to do what you may want to do".



This declares the battle of two wills inside a person


Anyone see God's good permissive will at work here inside a person ?

 

[Dino246]

Galatians 5:16–17:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are unable to do what you may want to do".

This declares the battle of two wills inside a person

Anyone see God's good permissive will at work here inside a person ?

No… and why are you yelling (large bold font)?

 

[Jordon]

No… and why are you yelling (large bold font)?

No what, yelling ?

Mellow yellow words scripture come on dude.

Big font lol it's not big enough for me, people use big font here all the time.

How on earth do you not see a battle of two wills here inside a person ?

Could you slot me into your schedule for an answer oh kind sir

• Galatians 5:16–17:
  "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are unable to do what you may want to do".
  

 

[Dino246]

No what, yelling ?

Mellow yellow words scripture come on dude.

Big font lol it's not big enough for me, people use big font here all the time.

How on earth do you not see a battle of two wills here inside a person ?

Could you slot me into your schedule for an answer oh kind sir

• Galatians 5:16–17:
  "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are unable to do what you may want to do".
  

I didn’t say that I don’t see a battle of two wills. I disagree that one of them is God’s “permissive will”.

 

[Jordon]

I didn’t say that I don’t see a battle of two wills. I disagree that one of them is God’s “permissive will”.

ah ok no problem,.well it is a thread about the battle of two wills

And I'm ready for what Any free will has to say really .but it looks like they've ran out of free will, they've all scarpered,

I do like a good battle, have to be honest. I'm also fully aware that my flesh likes to run free to. But where are the free will heroes ?


So curious what wills do you see

 

[Jordon]

I didn’t say that I don’t see a battle of two wills. I disagree that one of them is God’s “permissive will”.

well ok seeing as your in a reasonably good mood I'll explain.

So the permissive will is, the spirit is prepared to live in a person and put up with the conflict from the will of the flesh.

So if the spirit couldn't allow to put up with the free will of man it wouldn't be permissive, as permissive means to allow

 

[Jordon]

Well Good day folks

Todays food is a good question really, but so far I've asked this question to 3 Christians and so far I haven't had an answer ? In The calvinist bashing thread

And Two of them ignoring the question all together ?
The question

All cited in John 1 the most precious chapter in the bible in my view

If the word was with God and the word was God


Then surely the will of the flesh is the will of man ?

As John 1 states nor by the will of flesh nor by the will of man,

Why is the ancestry being left out in people's answers ?

One person refusing to answer will not even recognise the word became flesh, and will only say Jesus became flesh.

As Scripture declares the word was with God and the word was God ?

Another Christian answered and recognised that the word was with God and the word was God to both sentiments being true.

But even he won't answer the question is the will of the flesh the will of man.

 

[Dino246]

well ok seeing as your in a reasonably good mood I'll explain.

So the permissive will is, the spirit is prepared to live in a person and put up with the conflict from the will of the flesh.

So if the spirit couldn't allow to put up with the free will of man it wouldn't be permissive, as permissive means to allow

The problem, as I see it, is that you have made up your own definition of "permissive will" instead of using a fairly well-established and accepted definition. You have further stated that God imparts or imposes His "permissive will" on humans. That concept just does not jive with the teaching of Scripture.

I suggest you do some research. Here's a link to get you started:

Will - Bible Meaning & Definition - Baker's Dictionary | Bible Study Tools

 

[Jordon]

The problem, as I see it, is that you have made up your own definition of "permissive will" instead of using a fairly well-established and accepted definition. You have further stated that God imparts or imposes His "permissive will" on humans. That concept just does not jive with the teaching of Scripture.

I suggest you do some research. Here's a link to get you started:

Will - Bible Meaning & Definition - Baker's Dictionary | Bible Study Tools

human reasoning doesn't wash with me sir, my mum would always look for the spiritual ways to deal with the flesh. (Thoughts)

It's not imposing or imparting it Gods will protecting his breath of life in his people

 

[Jordon]

The problem, as I see it, is that you have made up your own definition of "permissive will" instead of using a fairly well-established and accepted definition. You have further stated that God imparts or imposes His "permissive will" on humans. That concept just does not jive with the teaching of Scripture.

I suggest you do some research. Here's a link to get you started:

Will - Bible Meaning & Definition - Baker's Dictionary | Bible Study Tools

what is the well established definition

 

[Dino246]

what is the well established definition

Permissive will is God allowing humans to make most of their own decisions rather than dictating every action or forcing them to do what He wants.

It is contrasted with His active will, which is the specific purposes He wants to bring about.

 

[Jordon]

Permissive will is God allowing humans to make most of their own decisions rather than dictating every action or forcing them to do what He wants.

It is contrasted with His active will, which is the specific purposes He wants to bring about.

Ok so by your definition of God's permissive will it equates to not forcing somebody to do what they want, which again by your definition. God is allowing something by his permissive wil, which by your definition is also active, so how can God separate his permissive will by his active will ? Seems a bit strange that you would consider his pernisssive will not active here ?



But by his permissive will of what he allows by your definition , he also let's people do what they want with there choice he gives them by his permissive will.

So by your definition his active will and his permissive will are completely separate to you

So is his active will active inside the person or is it his will is just active ? Outside of the person ?

 

[Dino246]

Ok so by your definition of God's permissive will it equates to not forcing somebody to do what they want, which again by your definition. God is allowing something by his permissive wil, which by your definition is also active, so how can God separate his permissive will by his active will ? Seems a bit strange that you would consider his pernisssive will not active here ?

Your first sentence isn't a complete sentence. Your second sentence ends in a question that doesn't make sense; I think you wrote an incorrect word in there. I didn't say God's permissive will is not active; that's your misunderstanding.

When a word is used in a compound noun, it takes on a context-specific meaning. Does "butterfly" mean it's a fly made of butter, or that butter flies? Neither. Distinguishing "permissive will" from "active will" does not imply that "permissive will" is not active, but that "active" within the compound noun "active will" means something different than "active" means by itself.

But by his permissive will of what he allows by your definition , he also let's people do what they want with there choice he gives them by his permissive will.

Your explanation is convoluted and poorly phrased. He doesn't "give choice" by His permissive will, He allows the humans He created in His image to exercise that image to make choices, imagine, think, and do many other things, without His direct intervention at every step. Unfortunately, because of Adam's sin, human choice often results in sin and harm... that's where the concept of "permission" comes in: God permits bad things to happen along with good things.

So by your definition his active will and his permissive will are completely separate to you

No, they are not "completely separate"; they are connected because they are both His will.

So is his active will active inside the person or is it his will is just active ? Outside of the person ?

Neither; it is not "located" anywhere because it is not a physical thing. His active will is the plan He is actively working out in the world.

 

[Jordon]

Your first sentence isn't a complete sentence. Your second sentence ends in a question that doesn't make sense; I think you wrote an incorrect word in there. I didn't say God's permissive will is not active; that's your misunderstanding.

When a word is used in a compound noun, it takes on a context-specific meaning. Does "butterfly" mean it's a fly made of butter, or that butter flies? Neither. Distinguishing "permissive will" from "active will" does not imply that "permissive will" is not active, but that "active" within the compound noun "active will" means something different than "active" means by itself.


Your explanation is convoluted and poorly phrased. He doesn't "give choice" by His permissive will, He allows the humans He created in His image to exercise that image to make choices, imagine, think, and do many other things, without His direct intervention at every step. Unfortunately, because of Adam's sin, human choice often results in sin and harm... that's where the concept of "permission" comes in: God permits bad things to happen along with good things.


No, they are not "completely separate"; they are connected because they are both His will.


Neither; it is not "located" anywhere because it is not a physical thing. His active will is the plan He is actively working out in the world.

ok well I'm just getting a complete picture of what you believe.

So is there any will of God inside a person

You said he allows people to make choice, is that by his will.

And God permitting good things and bad things is that by his will to ?

 

[Dino246]

.So is there any will of God inside a person

As I said, “will” does not have a physical location, so it is a category error to ask this question. A person may be aware of God’s will on some matter, but His will remains His own and He may share it… or not. I don’t think that Scripture teaches that He “puts His will into” a person.

You said he allows people to make choice, is that by his will.

And God permitting good things and bad things is that by his will to ?

God created humans in His image. “Will” is a component of God’s being, and similarly humans are created with a “will”. So humans can make choices.

God does permit both good and bad things to happen. Bad things are not His fault nor what He wants, but ultimate purposes supersede these bad things. So we call this aspect of His will “permissive”. He is not directly causing bad things but allows them to happen.

 

[Jordon]

As I said, “will” does not have a physical location, so it is a category error to ask this question. A person may be aware of God’s will on some matter, but His will remains His own and He may share it… or not. I don’t think that Scripture teaches that He “puts His will into” a person.



God created humans in His image. “Will” is a component of God’s being, and similarly humans are created with a “will”. So humans can make choices.

God does permit both good and bad things to happen. Bad things are not His fault nor what He wants, but ultimate purposes supersede these bad things. So we call this aspect of His will “permissive”. He is not directly causing bad things but allows them to happen.

Ok well so you said you 'think' that scripture doesn't teach that God puts his will into people, are you convinced of that, when you say you think, because normally when a person says they think something means this,.it normally implies they have a hesitancy, of which there unsure of.

 

[Jordon]

As I said, “will” does not have a physical location, so it is a category error to ask this question. A person may be aware of God’s will on some matter, but His will remains His own and He may share it… or not. I don’t think that Scripture teaches that He “puts His will into” a person.



God created humans in His image. “Will” is a component of God’s being, and similarly humans are created with a “will”. So humans can make choices.

God does permit both good and bad things to happen. Bad things are not His fault nor what He wants, but ultimate purposes supersede these bad things. So we call this aspect of His will “permissive”. He is not directly causing bad things but allows them to happen.

also you know you say that permissive to you means the bad thing that God allows to happen ?

Does this include the good Things that God allows to happen ?

And lastly you say that will Does not have a physical location, what does that mean exactly, because I'm seeing will as his devine powers also not just a plan. Can you leave his devine power out of his will ?


I don't think God is going to put his will in a location is he,

And just touching on something else you said, if you say God does not cause the bad things to happen why do you think he allows them to.

 

[Dino246]

also you know you say that permissive to you means the bad thing that God allows to happen ?

Does this include the good Things that God allows to happen ?

I already stated that it does.

And lastly you say that will Does not have a physical location, what does that mean exactly, because I'm seeing will as his devine powers also not just a plan. Can you leave his devine power out of his will ?[/QUOTE]
Firstly, the word is "divine".

Secondly, I said nothing about His power. Don't make assumptions based on what I didn't say.

And just touching on something else you said, if you say God does not cause the bad things to happen why do you think he allows them to.[/QUOTE]
Because to have people who choose to love Him genuinely, they must have the choice not to love Him.

 

[Dino246]

Ok well so you said you 'think' that scripture doesn't teach that God puts his will into people, are you convinced of that, when you say you think, because normally when a person says they think something means this,.it normally implies they have a hesitancy, of which there unsure of.

I have not conducted an exhaustive study of Scripture on that topic. I have, however, read the entire Bible many times, and don't recall anything of the sort. With the way I do recall what Scripture says (or doesn't say) on other topics, I am highly confident, but not 100% certain.

 

[Jordon]

I already stated that it does.

And lastly you say that will Does not have a physical location, what does that mean exactly, because I'm seeing will as his devine powers also not just a plan. Can you leave his devine power out of his will ?

Firstly, the word is "divine".

Secondly, I said nothing about His power. Don't make assumptions based on what I didn't say.

And just touching on something else you said, if you say God does not cause the bad things to happen why do you think he allows them to.[/QUOTE]
Because to have people who choose to love Him genuinely, they must have the choice not to love Him.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure thought this through properly l.

Your saying God allows bad things to happen because people chose not to love him. How could be allowing bad things to happen. ?

So many scripture a
i could post right now.

But for now your last your answers are difficult for me to accept, because your answers are mostly solely based on human reasoning and dictionary meanings.

I asked can you leave his devine power out of his will ?