Christ’s death and resurrection
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You're trying to conform reality to your theology, and it's just not working. Noah's "performance" saved him, for without the ark he built, (God didn't build it) he would have perished.
If you meant physical deliverance, I completely agree; the ark saved Noah and his family from the floodwaters. But that doesn’t change the spiritual point the author of Hebrews was making.
Hebrews 11:7 KJV uses Noah’s story to illustrate faith, not physical safety: “By faith Noah… prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
The verse itself defines the takeaway — Noah became heir of righteousness by faith, not by the work of building. The ark was the instrument of physical preservation, but the righteousness (salvation in God’s eyes) came by faith alone (Genesis 6:8 KJV; Romans 4:3 KJV; Ephesians 2:8–9 KJV).
So even if we distinguish physical from spiritual salvation, the passage still proves that faith precedes obedience and that grace is the source of both.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
I mean both physical and spiritual. If Noah hadn't built the ark he would have died in his sins without a savior.
Brother, Scripture is clear that Noah found grace and was already a just man before God ever commanded him to build (Genesis 6:8–9 KJV).
The ark preserved his family physically, but the righteousness that saved him spiritually was by faith alone (Hebrews 11:7 KJV).
If obedience were the condition for forgiveness, then grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6 KJV).
Noah’s work flowed from grace; it didn’t earn it.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
You just can't seem to hear that if Noah had died in the flood he would have been lost because he would have died in his sins without a savior. Can you please address this point before wandering off into other unrelated things?
Brother, I’m addressing your point exactly; Scripture says the opposite of what you’re claiming.
Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV) tells us, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD… Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” That means before a single board was cut, Noah was already walking with God and standing in His grace.
Had he physically died before the flood, he would not have “died in his sins” — he would have died in grace, just as the righteous who lived by faith before Christ did (Hebrews 11:13 KJV: “These all died in faith.”)
The ark preserved his body; faith had already secured his standing with God.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
You're really not a serious person to have a discussion with. A child could understand the point I"ve made, but you apparently can't.
Brother, personal remarks don’t change what Scripture says.
Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV) still stands — “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD… and Noah walked with God.”
The Word defines Noah’s standing before the flood, not our opinions about it.
I’ve answered your point from Scripture; if we can’t agree there, further debate won’t serve either of us.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
“faith acts; true faith always does. “
right
“your view that faith and obedience are inseparable.”
right faith always includes an action. You can’t remove the action being commanded or instructed by God and call it faith. That is actually the opposite of faith. Noah is a good example but really it’s every example for instance abraham . Same thing God speaks to him , tells him what to do then tells him the blessings that will result . By faith Abrahams part is to believe what he said and obey
That’s what Paul’s saying here about working out your own salvation to people who all already believed Jesus died and rose he’s talking about thier obedience
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, ( that’s our part ) not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
( this is Gods part ) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
God works in our mind and heart as we listen to his word to change us but all the while our part has never changed to listen to what God is saying and believe him and the things he’s telling us to do we’re meant to actually do. And yes brother I believe that’s part of saving faith and can’t be removed from it or “ separated“ ….. if we never do our part and act upon what we’ve been taught faith is just a word we’re using to avoid acting as many people do
“ I have faith therefore I don’t need to act and do what Jesus said to do because he died and rose “
“ i have faith which is why I believe beating the lords word will bring to pass the promise he’s made in it”
Action is part of faith annd it can’t be removed from it if that’s what he has said
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
look at Moses here it’s a simple example Gods word to him , and then Moses responding in faith and seeing the result come to oss as God spoke it to him
“And the LORD said unto Moses, ( gods instruction and resulting promise ) Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
Exodus 10:21-22 KJV
because Gods word included Moses action it’s required for the word to come to pass as spoken by the lord . Do you understand my point ? If God told him “don’t do anything I’m going to cause darkness just believe “ then his action wouldn’t be required then faith wouodnt require his action or obedience
thats how baptism is its value is what God said about it to Christian’s in his word that makes it an act of faith because we believe the word about it . Jesus taught and his apostles taught us a lot about our part and actions that stuff is all part of it can’t be removed because it’s his word in the gospel
im glad you underersnd I’m not trying to combat you or argue or make an enemy or anything like that I think it’s interesting discussion . Hard to find people who don’t get mad here if you disagree Sonora appreciated
To me it seems sort of circular like the chicken and egg . Faith comes from hearing the gospel and the gospel teaches us to act upon his word . Seems basic he did his part now we’re supposed to hear about it and do ours because we believe him
I agree completely that Noah found grace and was righteous, and Noah walked with God. But none of that would have mattered if he hadn't built the ark because he would have died in his sins and been lost forever because he had no savior. The savior came through him. Is it possible for you to get that point through your head?
Brother, I appreciate your kind tone and your heart for obedience to God’s Word; that’s the mark of genuine faith. We agree that faith without action is empty, but Scripture also keeps a clear order: faith first, obedience second.
When Paul said, “work out your own salvation” (Philippians 2:12-13 KJV), he wasn’t telling believers to achieve salvation, but to live out the salvation they already possessed. The next verse explains why: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” God is already in them — so their obedience is the expression of His work, not the cause of it.
The same truth shows in Noah, Abraham, and Moses. Each acted because they believed — never to make themselves righteous, but because they already trusted the Lord who had counted them righteous by faith (Genesis 15:6 KJV; Hebrews 11:7 KJV).
So yes, true faith acts; but the act doesn’t save; the Savior does. Obedience is faith’s echo, not faith’s engine.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Brother, I understand what you’re trying to express — that Noah’s obedience played a part in God’s larger plan of preservation, through which Christ would one day come. I don’t disagree that God used Noah as a vessel of His purpose.
But Scripture is clear that Noah’s righteousness before God was already established by grace and faith long before the ark was built. Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV) — “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD… Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
The Savior didn’t come through Noah’s hammer — He came through God’s promise. The building of the ark fulfilled God’s physical plan; the grace that saved Noah spiritually was God’s gift, not Noah’s achievement (Ephesians 2:8–9 KJV; Hebrews 11:7 KJV).
I respect your zeal, but the text remains plain: Noah was already under grace before obedience ever began.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Brother, I don’t follow Calvin, Luther, or any ideology — only Christ and His Word.
If what I’ve shared agrees with Scripture, then it’s truth; if not, it should be rejected, regardless of whose name is attached to it.
Acts 17:11 (KJV) reminds us that the Bereans “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
Let’s both stay there — in the Word, not in labels.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
lol Calvinist ideology is a mind numbing drug
Your ideas are classic Calvinist ideology.
Your ideas are classic Calvinist ideology.
When all else fails play the strawman card.
Brother, if something I’ve said aligns with God’s Word, then it isn’t Calvinist — it’s biblical.
I don’t follow systems or men; I follow Christ alone.
John 8:31–32 (KJV) says, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
My goal isn’t to defend a name or an ideology, only the truth of Scripture.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
“faith first, obedience second.”
yeah seed first and then the fruit we’ve agreed on that the whole time . Faith comes from hearing his word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
here’s a seed that from the beginning includes the action because like with Moses his word itself weaves the action into it ……so a seed
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Not an obscure one but a repetetive core teaching of Jesus
“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 11:25-26
Do you see how the very thing he’s saying his word makes obedience necassary from conception ? We couldn’t remove the action of the Hester from this word correct or we’d be denying it all together because the word itself includes the action of the Hearer
“ if you do this thing , God will do this thing …. But if you do not do this thing neither will he do this thing “
theres no way to remove the action from it is the point a lot of his word is like that
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 KJV
what the believer does in response is part of faith not everyone who says lord lord but he that does the Will of my father “
“Moses lift up your hand so that there may be darkness three days ……and Moses lifted up his hand and there was theee days darkness “
V and Moses didn’t lift up his hand he just believed . “ Noah build an ark as I tell you and I’ll make a covenant with you and save your family … and Noah did everything God commanded him and he and his family were saved …” . V Noah said he believed and was saved without his action “
God said to Abraham get out of here and leave your country and go where I’ll tell you later and in you all nations will be blessed … and Abraham obeyed the lord and went out not even knowing where he was going.
They obeyed because they heard and believed Gods word that’s faith you have to hear what he said and if you believe it you’ll act upon it and receive the promise that’s included like
baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins . It holds a promise to a believer for remission of thier sins . Jesus death and resurrection is why it has power to remit thier sins in his name who died for thier sins . But baotism is an inclusive action we have to decide and choose to donor based on our belief
We can believe the right rings or wrong things however and they will lead us to the wrong actions
yeah seed first and then the fruit we’ve agreed on that the whole time . Faith comes from hearing his word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
here’s a seed that from the beginning includes the action because like with Moses his word itself weaves the action into it ……so a seed
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Not an obscure one but a repetetive core teaching of Jesus
“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 11:25-26
Do you see how the very thing he’s saying his word makes obedience necassary from conception ? We couldn’t remove the action of the Hester from this word correct or we’d be denying it all together because the word itself includes the action of the Hearer
“ if you do this thing , God will do this thing …. But if you do not do this thing neither will he do this thing “
theres no way to remove the action from it is the point a lot of his word is like that
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 KJV
what the believer does in response is part of faith not everyone who says lord lord but he that does the Will of my father “
“Moses lift up your hand so that there may be darkness three days ……and Moses lifted up his hand and there was theee days darkness “
V and Moses didn’t lift up his hand he just believed . “ Noah build an ark as I tell you and I’ll make a covenant with you and save your family … and Noah did everything God commanded him and he and his family were saved …” . V Noah said he believed and was saved without his action “
God said to Abraham get out of here and leave your country and go where I’ll tell you later and in you all nations will be blessed … and Abraham obeyed the lord and went out not even knowing where he was going.
They obeyed because they heard and believed Gods word that’s faith you have to hear what he said and if you believe it you’ll act upon it and receive the promise that’s included like
baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins . It holds a promise to a believer for remission of thier sins . Jesus death and resurrection is why it has power to remit thier sins in his name who died for thier sins . But baotism is an inclusive action we have to decide and choose to donor based on our belief
We can believe the right rings or wrong things however and they will lead us to the wrong actions