The New Covenant Is Not What Many Have Been Taught

[posthuman]

you are obviously following exclusively paul whom you do not understand, paul was a pharisee and you think exactly like him but twist his words to your destruction. your reply applies to you not me, pharisee!

 

[posthuman]

Just to stay on track here - - this thread OP claims that the 'new covenant' of Christ's blood is essentially, keep the 10 commandments or else lose your salvation.

that's false on several grounds, but the main point having been under discussion is whether the Christian is under the law or not.

two sides to this:

1. The Christian is not under law but grace by virtue of being baptized into the death of Christ. The scriptures are emphatic, abundant, and clear on this point - it being the major contention at the first council in Jerusalem and a sore point between orthodox Jews and Christian believers for a couple thousand years.
2. Everyone is under the Law, and all of the jots and tittles of the Law except the 10 commandments are deleted. The 10 commandments grant eternal life, according to one out of context snippet in Matthew that is worded differently in Mark. Paul is difficult to understand so he should be ignored.

it seems to me this discussion has been over as quickly as it began - the topic having been settled in the book of Acts and expounded on in the epistles.

 

[posthuman]

To tell the truth on all occasions even when it will cost you, is definitely an inward struggle.

I don't believe you said "there is no work involved in not lying".

if we only spoke truth and never lied every word from our mouth would be scripture!

Who but God is perfect in all their speech??

 

[vassal]

You cannot deny church history.

Your church has it's own history and the characters that shaped your church doctrine.

Augustine of Hippo (4th century AD) made earlier distinctions between the moral law and symbolical precepts,
which influenced later thought, though he gave less consideration to civil law.

That's church history.

Thomas Aquinas (13th century AD) is credited with formalizing the three distinct categories. He argued:
Moral precepts (the Ten Commandments) are dictated by natural law and remain perpetually binding on all people.
Ceremonial precepts were determinations of divine worship specific to ancient Israel, foreshadowed Christ, and are no longer binding. Judicial/Civil precepts outlined justice for the Israelite commonwealth and ceased to be binding as specific laws when that nation's polity ended, although their general principles of equity may still be applicable to modern societies.

That's church history also.

Thomas Aquinas (13th Century) was the greatest theologian of the Catholic Church.

The Reformation began in the 16th century when Martin Luther posted his "95 Theses" in Wittenberg, Germany.

The Reformation started three hundred years after Thomas Aquinas.

John Calvin was a Reformer in the 16th century.

John Calvin read the works of Thomas Aquinas (13th century) and agreed with the partition of the law,

into Moral, Ceremonial, and Judicial law.

Hence, the Reformation adopted the idea of Jesus plus the law.

The Protestant followed church tradition and also adopted Jesus plus the law.

The Methodists were a Protestant church that arose from the Church of England.

Ellen G White was raised in a Methodist church and she was taught that same idea; Jesus plus the law.

That is church history and there is nothing you can do about that.

You cannot deny that you walk in the footsteps of the Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas.

Sorry inquisitor I know only of the name Thomas Aquinas but not of the man or what he did or preached, again you try to stitck a label to me, Ill give you one that is correct; DIsciple of Follower of Christ.

You are correct that church history exists, and figures like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, the Reformers, and later movements like Methodism have probably shaped how people interpret Scripture. I know very little if these people I am content to read the bible scripture and will nit be lead astray, I hear only the voice of Jesus. History, no matter how detailed or long, is not the master record. The words of Jesus Himself are the closest we have to the truth, the direct teaching from God. They are the primary, unchanging guide. Everything written later, whether by church fathers, reformers, or modern teachers, must be measured against His words. If it agrees, it can be considered; if it contradicts, it cannot define faith or practice.

The Bible calls us to diligence in studying and obeying God’s word. Jesus said, “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:24 KJV), and “Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” (Luke 11:28 KJV). Peter wrote, “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10 KJV). John said, “Little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth” (1 John 3:18 KJV). In the Old Testament, God commanded, “This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein” (Joshua 1:8 KJV), and “Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life” (Proverbs 4:13 KJV).

Diligence is not about memorizing church history or following men, but about carefully walking in what God Himself has revealed. Church tradition may offer explanations, categories, or interpretations, but it is always secondary. The ultimate standard is what Jesus Himself said, what He commanded, and how He lived it. Those words are alive, they guide obedience, and they show the heart of God. Following Him is not about following Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, or Ellen G. White. It is about walking in the way Jesus taught, loving God and neighbor, and keeping His commandments.

History can inform us, but it can never replace the Master Record—the words of Jesus. Let us give ourselves wholly to them with diligence, as Scripture commands.

 

[vassal]

Just to stay on track here - - this thread OP claims that the 'new covenant' of Christ's blood is essentially, keep the 10 commandments or else lose your salvation.

that's false on several grounds, but the main point having been under discussion is whether the Christian is under the law or not.

two sides to this:

1. The Christian is not under law but grace by virtue of being baptized into the death of Christ. The scriptures are emphatic, abundant, and clear on this point - it being the major contention at the first council in Jerusalem and a sore point between orthodox Jews and Christian believers for a couple thousand years.
2. Everyone is under the Law, and all of the jots and tittles of the Law except the 10 commandments are deleted. The 10 commandments grant eternal life, according to one out of context snippet in Matthew that is worded differently in Mark. Paul is difficult to understand so he should be ignored.

it seems to me this discussion has been over as quickly as it began - the topic having been settled in the book of Acts and expounded on in the epistles.

This statement is not only wrong, it is a serious distortion of the words of Jesus. To claim that Christians are “not under the law” or that only the Ten Commandments remain, while ignoring the rest of His teaching, is to misrepresent the very gospel Jesus preached. Let us go to what Jesus Himself said, for His words are the Master Record, and nothing later can override them.

Jesus never taught that obedience is optional. He said clearly:

• Matthew 5:17-19: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
  Jesus teaches that all the law matters, and that breaking even the smallest command is serious. To say Christians are “not under the law” is a direct contradiction.
• John 14:15: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Love is inseparable from obedience. Salvation is not a license to ignore God’s law.
• John 15:10: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” Jesus models obedience and commands us to do the same.
• Matthew 19:16-21, the story of the rich young ruler, shows Jesus linking eternal life with keeping the commandments, and then calling the man to a higher level of obedience—giving up wealth and following Him. Jesus never suggested that grace cancels the need for obedience.
• Luke 6:46: “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” To call Him Lord while ignoring His commandments is hypocrisy.

To claim that the law is abolished or that only parts of it matter is to misrepresent Christ and His gospel. Acts and the epistles explain salvation through Christ, yes, but they never give license to disobey Jesus’ commands. Obedience and love are always linked.

In short, this is a serious error: it twists Scripture, removes Jesus’ authority, and misleads people. Every follower of Christ must measure truth by His words, not by later interpretations or church traditions certainly not by your lies. Grace does not nullify obedience; it empowers it.

 

[Cameron143]

Here’s a firm, Scripture-based rebuke you can use, written in simple language with Jesus’ words as the authority:

This statement is not only wrong, it is a serious distortion of the words of Jesus. To claim that Christians are “not under the law” or that only the Ten Commandments remain, while ignoring the rest of His teaching, is to misrepresent the very gospel Jesus preached. Let us go to what Jesus Himself said, for His words are the Master Record, and nothing later can override them.

Jesus never taught that obedience is optional. He said clearly:

• Matthew 5:17-19: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
  Jesus teaches that all the law matters, and that breaking even the smallest command is serious. To say Christians are “not under the law” is a direct contradiction.
• John 14:15: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Love is inseparable from obedience. Salvation is not a license to ignore God’s law.
• John 15:10: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” Jesus models obedience and commands us to do the same.
• Matthew 19:16-21, the story of the rich young ruler, shows Jesus linking eternal life with keeping the commandments, and then calling the man to a higher level of obedience—giving up wealth and following Him. Jesus never suggested that grace cancels the need for obedience.
• Luke 6:46: “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” To call Him Lord while ignoring His commandments is hypocrisy.

To claim that the law is abolished or that only parts of it matter is to misrepresent Christ and His gospel. Acts and the epistles explain salvation through Christ, yes, but they never give license to disobey Jesus’ commands. Obedience and love are always linked.

In short, this is a serious error: it twists Scripture, removes Jesus’ authority, and misleads people. Every follower of Christ must measure truth by His words, not by later interpretations or church traditions certainly not by your lies. Grace does not nullify obedience; it empowers it.

Who is the audience that Jesus is almost always talking to?

Can you show from scripture where Jesus ever tells a Gentile to keep the law?

Also, heaven and earth have passed away in the biblical sense. We are living in a time when the former things have passed away and all things are becoming new.

 

[vassal]

Who is the audience that Jesus is almost always talking to?

Can you show from scripture where Jesus ever tells a Gentile to keep the law?

Also, heaven and earth have passed away in the biblical sense. We are living in a time when the former things have passed away and all things are becoming new.

Who is Jesus usually speaking to?
Almost all of Jesus’ ministry was focused on Israel, the Jewish people. He repeatedly said things like:

• Matthew 15:24 – “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• Matthew 10:5-6 – “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Even when He healed or helped Gentiles, it was usually to show God’s mercy and to teach His disciples. His commands, His law, His call to obedience—those were directed primarily to Israel.

Did Jesus ever tell a Gentile to keep the Law?
There is no record in the Gospels of Jesus commanding a Gentile to keep the Law. Examples:

• When the Centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13), Jesus praised his faith, not law-keeping.
• When the Canaanite woman asked for her daughter’s healing (Matthew 15:21-28), Jesus tested her faith, not her obedience to the Law.

All His commands about keeping God’s commandments, obeying God, and faith were spoken to Jews, the children of Israel, as part of God’s covenant with them.

Heaven and earth passing away
Jesus says in Matthew 24:35 – “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” This tells us that the old order of things—the Law, the old covenant practices, and the earthly systems—will end, but His teachings, His way of life, His words remain forever.
The idea of “all things becoming new” echoes Revelation 21:5, where God says: “Behold, I make all things new.” The old system (temple rituals, ceremonial laws) has passed; we are entering into a new spiritual reality, but Jesus’ words, His commandments, and God’s moral law ( the ten commandments) remain the foundation.

Jesus never directly commanded Gentiles to keep the Law because His ministry on earth was focused on Israel, the people through whom God’s covenant and promises were given. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). The Law, the commandments, and the teachings were given to Israel as part of God’s covenant.

At the same time, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom was bigger than Israel alone. He spoke of “other sheep” that were not of the fold, saying, “Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16). These “other sheep” are Gentiles who would join God’s people through faith and obedience. The Old Testament already shows that Gentiles could fully belong to Israel: Rahab (Joshua 2) and Ruth (Ruth 1–4) became part of God’s covenant people, Naaman the Syrian turned to God (2 Kings 5:15), and God’s city was described as including people from all nations (Psalm 87:4).
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that Gentiles were invited into God’s kingdom, not by a separate law, but by faith in God, obedience to Jesus’ teachings, and turning to Him. The Law remained God’s standard, but Gentiles were included when they became part of His spiritual fold.
So, Jesus came first to Israel to fulfill God’s promises, but His plan always included the Gentiles. They could fully belong to God’s people, not by ethnicity, but by faith and obedience. That is why Jesus spoke His commandments to Israel but still opened the door for all nations to be part of His one fold. Faith and obedience are what unite every believer—Jew or Gentile—into God’s kingdom.

God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that through their descendants all nations would be blessed (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18). The promise was first to Israel: God would make them His chosen people, give them His Law, and use them to reveal His ways to the world. Jesus fulfilled this promise by coming first to Israel. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles… but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
This focus on Israel reflects God’s covenant plan. Israel was chosen to receive the Law, the prophets, and the promises, and through them, God would prepare the way for salvation to reach all nations. Even in the Old Testament, Gentiles could fully join God’s people when they turned to Him: Rahab the harlot (Joshua 2:9-11), Ruth the Moabitess (Ruth 1–4), and Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5:15) are examples of Gentiles welcomed into Israel. Psalm 87:4 also describes God’s city as including people from all nations. So the door was always open, but Israel was first.
Isaiah 49:6 explains this plan further: God speaks of His servant, saying, “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” The servant here is the Messiah, Jesus, who first came to restore Israel, then extended God’s salvation to the Gentiles. His mission was always twofold: Israel first, Gentiles next. This shows that God’s plan was ordered and faithful to His promises.
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them… Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that the Gentiles could now fully enter God’s kingdom—not by separate law, but through faith, obedience, and following Jesus’ teachings. The “other sheep” Jesus spoke of (John 10:16) are the Gentiles who would join the fold, bringing all believers—Jew and Gentile—together under one shepherd.

In summary, Jesus fulfilled God’s promise to Israel first, teaching them and calling them back to God. At the same time, He opened the way for all nations to be included, showing that faith and obedience, not nationality, make someone truly part of God’s covenant. Israel was the starting point, but the blessing always extended to all who would hear His voice and follow Him.

 

[Cameron143]

Who is Jesus usually speaking to?
Almost all of Jesus’ ministry was focused on Israel, the Jewish people. He repeatedly said things like:

• Matthew 15:24 – “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• Matthew 10:5-6 – “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Even when He healed or helped Gentiles, it was usually to show God’s mercy and to teach His disciples. His commands, His law, His call to obedience—those were directed primarily to Israel.

Did Jesus ever tell a Gentile to keep the Law?
There is no record in the Gospels of Jesus commanding a Gentile to keep the Law. Examples:

• When the Centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13), Jesus praised his faith, not law-keeping.
• When the Canaanite woman asked for her daughter’s healing (Matthew 15:21-28), Jesus tested her faith, not her obedience to the Law.

All His commands about keeping God’s commandments, obeying God, and faith were spoken to Jews, the children of Israel, as part of God’s covenant with them.

Heaven and earth passing away
Jesus says in Matthew 24:35 – “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” This tells us that the old order of things—the Law, the old covenant practices, and the earthly systems—will end, but His teachings, His way of life, His words remain forever.
The idea of “all things becoming new” echoes Revelation 21:5, where God says: “Behold, I make all things new.” The old system (temple rituals, ceremonial laws) has passed; we are entering into a new spiritual reality, but Jesus’ words, His commandments, and God’s moral law ( the ten commandments) remain the foundation.

Jesus never directly commanded Gentiles to keep the Law because His ministry on earth was focused on Israel, the people through whom God’s covenant and promises were given. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). The Law, the commandments, and the teachings were given to Israel as part of God’s covenant.

At the same time, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom was bigger than Israel alone. He spoke of “other sheep” that were not of the fold, saying, “Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16). These “other sheep” are Gentiles who would join God’s people through faith and obedience. The Old Testament already shows that Gentiles could fully belong to Israel: Rahab (Joshua 2) and Ruth (Ruth 1–4) became part of God’s covenant people, Naaman the Syrian turned to God (2 Kings 5:15), and God’s city was described as including people from all nations (Psalm 87:4).
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that Gentiles were invited into God’s kingdom, not by a separate law, but by faith in God, obedience to Jesus’ teachings, and turning to Him. The Law remained God’s standard, but Gentiles were included when they became part of His spiritual fold.
So, Jesus came first to Israel to fulfill God’s promises, but His plan always included the Gentiles. They could fully belong to God’s people, not by ethnicity, but by faith and obedience. That is why Jesus spoke His commandments to Israel but still opened the door for all nations to be part of His one fold. Faith and obedience are what unite every believer—Jew or Gentile—into God’s kingdom.

God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that through their descendants all nations would be blessed (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18). The promise was first to Israel: God would make them His chosen people, give them His Law, and use them to reveal His ways to the world. Jesus fulfilled this promise by coming first to Israel. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles… but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
This focus on Israel reflects God’s covenant plan. Israel was chosen to receive the Law, the prophets, and the promises, and through them, God would prepare the way for salvation to reach all nations. Even in the Old Testament, Gentiles could fully join God’s people when they turned to Him: Rahab the harlot (Joshua 2:9-11), Ruth the Moabitess (Ruth 1–4), and Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5:15) are examples of Gentiles welcomed into Israel. Psalm 87:4 also describes God’s city as including people from all nations. So the door was always open, but Israel was first.
Isaiah 49:6 explains this plan further: God speaks of His servant, saying, “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” The servant here is the Messiah, Jesus, who first came to restore Israel, then extended God’s salvation to the Gentiles. His mission was always twofold: Israel first, Gentiles next. This shows that God’s plan was ordered and faithful to His promises.
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them… Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that the Gentiles could now fully enter God’s kingdom—not by separate law, but through faith, obedience, and following Jesus’ teachings. The “other sheep” Jesus spoke of (John 10:16) are the Gentiles who would join the fold, bringing all believers—Jew and Gentile—together under one shepherd.

In summary, Jesus fulfilled God’s promise to Israel first, teaching them and calling them back to God. At the same time, He opened the way for all nations to be included, showing that faith and obedience, not nationality, make someone truly part of God’s covenant. Israel was the starting point, but the blessing always extended to all who would hear His voice and follow Him.

Well, lots good there, until you added obedience to faith as the basis for the new covenant. Appreciate the reply.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus teaches that all the law matters, and that breaking even the smallest command is serious. To say Christians are “not under the law” is a direct contradiction.

You said.

To say Christians are “not under the law” is a direct contradiction.

So why did Paul say the following.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it!

The text states Christians are not under the law (nomos).

How can that be a contradiction?

 

[Inquisitor]

Who is Jesus usually speaking to?
Almost all of Jesus’ ministry was focused on Israel, the Jewish people. He repeatedly said things like:

• Matthew 15:24 – “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• Matthew 10:5-6 – “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Even when He healed or helped Gentiles, it was usually to show God’s mercy and to teach His disciples. His commands, His law, His call to obedience—those were directed primarily to Israel.

Did Jesus ever tell a Gentile to keep the Law?
There is no record in the Gospels of Jesus commanding a Gentile to keep the Law. Examples:

• When the Centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13), Jesus praised his faith, not law-keeping.
• When the Canaanite woman asked for her daughter’s healing (Matthew 15:21-28), Jesus tested her faith, not her obedience to the Law.

All His commands about keeping God’s commandments, obeying God, and faith were spoken to Jews, the children of Israel, as part of God’s covenant with them.

Heaven and earth passing away
Jesus says in Matthew 24:35 – “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” This tells us that the old order of things—the Law, the old covenant practices, and the earthly systems—will end, but His teachings, His way of life, His words remain forever.
The idea of “all things becoming new” echoes Revelation 21:5, where God says: “Behold, I make all things new.” The old system (temple rituals, ceremonial laws) has passed; we are entering into a new spiritual reality, but Jesus’ words, His commandments, and God’s moral law ( the ten commandments) remain the foundation.

Jesus never directly commanded Gentiles to keep the Law because His ministry on earth was focused on Israel, the people through whom God’s covenant and promises were given. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). The Law, the commandments, and the teachings were given to Israel as part of God’s covenant.

At the same time, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom was bigger than Israel alone. He spoke of “other sheep” that were not of the fold, saying, “Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd” (John 10:16). These “other sheep” are Gentiles who would join God’s people through faith and obedience. The Old Testament already shows that Gentiles could fully belong to Israel: Rahab (Joshua 2) and Ruth (Ruth 1–4) became part of God’s covenant people, Naaman the Syrian turned to God (2 Kings 5:15), and God’s city was described as including people from all nations (Psalm 87:4).
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that Gentiles were invited into God’s kingdom, not by a separate law, but by faith in God, obedience to Jesus’ teachings, and turning to Him. The Law remained God’s standard, but Gentiles were included when they became part of His spiritual fold.
So, Jesus came first to Israel to fulfill God’s promises, but His plan always included the Gentiles. They could fully belong to God’s people, not by ethnicity, but by faith and obedience. That is why Jesus spoke His commandments to Israel but still opened the door for all nations to be part of His one fold. Faith and obedience are what unite every believer—Jew or Gentile—into God’s kingdom.

God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that through their descendants all nations would be blessed (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18). The promise was first to Israel: God would make them His chosen people, give them His Law, and use them to reveal His ways to the world. Jesus fulfilled this promise by coming first to Israel. He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and sent His disciples first to them, not to the Gentiles: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles… but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
This focus on Israel reflects God’s covenant plan. Israel was chosen to receive the Law, the prophets, and the promises, and through them, God would prepare the way for salvation to reach all nations. Even in the Old Testament, Gentiles could fully join God’s people when they turned to Him: Rahab the harlot (Joshua 2:9-11), Ruth the Moabitess (Ruth 1–4), and Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5:15) are examples of Gentiles welcomed into Israel. Psalm 87:4 also describes God’s city as including people from all nations. So the door was always open, but Israel was first.
Isaiah 49:6 explains this plan further: God speaks of His servant, saying, “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” The servant here is the Messiah, Jesus, who first came to restore Israel, then extended God’s salvation to the Gentiles. His mission was always twofold: Israel first, Gentiles next. This shows that God’s plan was ordered and faithful to His promises.
After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them… Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that the Gentiles could now fully enter God’s kingdom—not by separate law, but through faith, obedience, and following Jesus’ teachings. The “other sheep” Jesus spoke of (John 10:16) are the Gentiles who would join the fold, bringing all believers—Jew and Gentile—together under one shepherd.

In summary, Jesus fulfilled God’s promise to Israel first, teaching them and calling them back to God. At the same time, He opened the way for all nations to be included, showing that faith and obedience, not nationality, make someone truly part of God’s covenant. Israel was the starting point, but the blessing always extended to all who would hear His voice and follow Him.

You seem to always plug obedience into faith.

Here is an example.

"They could fully belong to God’s people, not by ethnicity, but by faith and obedience."

It is as if faith and obedience is one word.

Your cannot be saved unless both are evident?

What you are saying is a simple misunderstanding of the text.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9, means that no one is saved by faith and obedience together.

Your obedience has nothing to do with that gift of salvation.

Why do you mention faith and obedience together?

 

[posthuman]

Sorry inquisitor I know only of the name Thomas Aquinas but not of the man or what he did or preached, again you try to stitck a label to me, Ill give you one that is correct; DIsciple of Follower of Christ.

You are correct that church history exists, and figures like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, the Reformers, and later movements like Methodism have probably shaped how people interpret Scripture. I know very little if these people I am content to read the bible scripture and will nit be lead astray, I hear only the voice of Jesus. History, no matter how detailed or long, is not the master record. The words of Jesus Himself are the closest we have to the truth, the direct teaching from God. They are the primary, unchanging guide. Everything written later, whether by church fathers, reformers, or modern teachers, must be measured against His words. If it agrees, it can be considered; if it contradicts, it cannot define faith or practice.

The Bible calls us to diligence in studying and obeying God’s word. Jesus said, “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:24 KJV), and “Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” (Luke 11:28 KJV). Peter wrote, “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10 KJV). John said, “Little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth” (1 John 3:18 KJV). In the Old Testament, God commanded, “This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein” (Joshua 1:8 KJV), and “Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life” (Proverbs 4:13 KJV).

Diligence is not about memorizing church history or following men, but about carefully walking in what God Himself has revealed. Church tradition may offer explanations, categories, or interpretations, but it is always secondary. The ultimate standard is what Jesus Himself said, what He commanded, and how He lived it. Those words are alive, they guide obedience, and they show the heart of God. Following Him is not about following Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, or Ellen G. White. It is about walking in the way Jesus taught, loving God and neighbor, and keeping His commandments.

History can inform us, but it can never replace the Master Record—the words of Jesus. Let us give ourselves wholly to them with diligence, as Scripture commands.

if God considered it right to put the history of the Jewish people in scripture, are we wise to willfully ignore the history of the church?

 

[posthuman]

This statement is not only wrong, it is a serious distortion of the words of Jesus. To claim that Christians are “not under the law” or that only the Ten Commandments remain, while ignoring the rest of His teaching, is to misrepresent the very gospel Jesus preached. Let us go to what Jesus Himself said, for His words are the Master Record, and nothing later can override them.

Jesus never taught that obedience is optional. He said clearly:

• Matthew 5:17-19: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
  Jesus teaches that all the law matters, and that breaking even the smallest command is serious. To say Christians are “not under the law” is a direct contradiction.
• John 14:15: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Love is inseparable from obedience. Salvation is not a license to ignore God’s law.
• John 15:10: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” Jesus models obedience and commands us to do the same.
• Matthew 19:16-21, the story of the rich young ruler, shows Jesus linking eternal life with keeping the commandments, and then calling the man to a higher level of obedience—giving up wealth and following Him. Jesus never suggested that grace cancels the need for obedience.
• Luke 6:46: “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” To call Him Lord while ignoring His commandments is hypocrisy.

To claim that the law is abolished or that only parts of it matter is to misrepresent Christ and His gospel. Acts and the epistles explain salvation through Christ, yes, but they never give license to disobey Jesus’ commands. Obedience and love are always linked.

In short, this is a serious error: it twists Scripture, removes Jesus’ authority, and misleads people. Every follower of Christ must measure truth by His words, not by later interpretations or church traditions certainly not by your lies. Grace does not nullify obedience; it empowers it.

previously discussed.

see Romans 1-8, the believer is set free from the law: that is literally our salvation.
accusing the Christian of seeking to sin because he affirms only God's mercy saves him is slander born out of complete ignorance of the gospel.
we pursue righteousness out of love and because He supernaturally transforms our nature, not out of fear or compulsion.

as far as the thread topic is concerned, this discussion already reached its conclusion 2k years ago - - no, the new covenant is not Exodus 10.

 

[posthuman]

To claim that the law is abolished or that only parts of it matter is to misrepresent Christ and His gospel

you don't seem to understand that in my post, argument #2 represents your position.

you are the one who would delete all of the law except the 10 commandments.

i have said, not one single iota of the Law needs to be removed for a dead man to be completely outside of its jurisdiction, and that anyone who places themselves under it is hopeless because there is no temple in Jerusalem, no red heifer, no Levite that is cleansed for service, therefore it is strictly impossible for anyone to keep the Torah today, ((notwithstanding that no one keeps any part of it perfectly apart from Jesus)) and all under it are cursed.

i thank God that i cannot be held to an impossible standard, a ministry of death engraved in stone - - but that instead the Godman held me to His breast and we plunged through death into newness of life

i am completely free, free indeed

 

[posthuman]

Who is the audience that Jesus is almost always talking to?

Can you show from scripture where Jesus ever tells a Gentile to keep the law?

Also, heaven and earth have passed away in the biblical sense. We are living in a time when the former things have passed away and all things are becoming new.

Peter: seeing that all these things will be destroyed by fire, what kind of people ought you to be?

IOW because God said so, it's as good as passed away already. live like it

 

[Inquisitor]

Sorry inquisitor I know only of the name Thomas Aquinas but not of the man or what he did or preached, again you try to stitck a label to me, Ill give you one that is correct; DIsciple of Follower of Christ.

You are correct that church history exists, and figures like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, the Reformers, and later movements like Methodism have probably shaped how people interpret Scripture. I know very little if these people I am content to read the bible scripture and will nit be lead astray, I hear only the voice of Jesus. History, no matter how detailed or long, is not the master record. The words of Jesus Himself are the closest we have to the truth, the direct teaching from God. They are the primary, unchanging guide. Everything written later, whether by church fathers, reformers, or modern teachers, must be measured against His words. If it agrees, it can be considered; if it contradicts, it cannot define faith or practice.

The Bible calls us to diligence in studying and obeying God’s word. Jesus said, “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:24 KJV), and “Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” (Luke 11:28 KJV). Peter wrote, “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10 KJV). John said, “Little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth” (1 John 3:18 KJV). In the Old Testament, God commanded, “This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein” (Joshua 1:8 KJV), and “Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life” (Proverbs 4:13 KJV).

Diligence is not about memorizing church history or following men, but about carefully walking in what God Himself has revealed. Church tradition may offer explanations, categories, or interpretations, but it is always secondary. The ultimate standard is what Jesus Himself said, what He commanded, and how He lived it. Those words are alive, they guide obedience, and they show the heart of God. Following Him is not about following Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, or Ellen G. White. It is about walking in the way Jesus taught, loving God and neighbor, and keeping His commandments.

History can inform us, but it can never replace the Master Record—the words of Jesus. Let us give ourselves wholly to them with diligence, as Scripture commands.

You will also be aware that you can attend a Catholic service and then a Lutheran service.
And barely notice any difference between these two services. Why is that?

Why is the Reformation church service almost an exact copy of a Catholic Church service?

Why are all the Protestant churches also exact copies of the Catholic Church service?

Was the Catholic Church service in the sixteenth century the same as the first century service?

I do know that the church in 1 Corinthians did not look anything like a modern church service.

Why is that?

 

[posthuman]

After His resurrection, Jesus sent His disciples to all nations, saying, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This shows that Gentiles were invited into God’s kingdom, not by a separate law, but by faith in God, obedience to Jesus’ teachings, and turning to Him. The Law remained God’s standard, but Gentiles were included when they became part of His spiritual fold.

please see Acts 15.

please see the entirety of church history, with particular attention to practice and theology.

 

[posthuman]

You will also be aware that you can attend a Catholic service and then a Lutheran service.
And barely notice any difference between these two services. Why is that?

Why is the Reformation church service almost an exact copy of a Catholic Church service?

Why are all the Protestant churches also exact copies of the Catholic Church service?

Was the Catholic Church service in the sixteenth century the same as the first century service?

I do know that the church in 1 Corinthians did not look anything like a modern church service.

Why is that?

well there are certainly differences.

but a laity and a priesthood, with in general one man standing up and telling everyone else what they ought to do or believe, with the tacit understanding that no one else is allowed to speak, is in common everywhere, you're right - - and is completely at odds with how the operation of a church assembly was described in 1 Cor.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

You will also be aware that you can attend a Catholic service and then a Lutheran service.
And barely notice any difference between these two services. Why is that?

Why is the Reformation church service almost an exact copy of a Catholic Church service?

Why are all the Protestant churches also exact copies of the Catholic Church service?

Was the Catholic Church service in the sixteenth century the same as the first century service?

I do know that the church in 1 Corinthians did not look anything like a modern church service.

Why is that?

The technical term "feuerbend machen" would be similar to saying "worship on Sunday". It in the German language refers to the idiomatic relationship between their language, and to have curfew that is legally enforced on this day. The holy Catholic Church is in dominion over Germany, but there are specific ways to understand that Martin Luther instituted provisions for commercial law such as placing an outright ban on "indulgences". These are part of the integral reasons for separation of Church and State, since the State would often require indulgences to be paid like tax, which is no longer principally valid.

 

[Cameron143]

Peter: seeing that all these things will be destroyed by fire, what kind of people ought you to be?

IOW because God said so, it's as good as passed away already. live like it

The language used for the end of things is always de-creation language. It is the opposite of creation language wherein God assembles things, de-creation language has the destruction of things. Instead of the sun and moon giving light, one finds darkness. Instead of the skies expanding, they are rolled up. Etc, etc.

The cross was a turning point in history. From the onset of sin to the cross, things got progressively worse. Sin multiplied. The effects of sin deepened. Until...the cross. Since, things have slowly but progressively gotten better. Jesus is destroying the works of the devil and restoring things as they were.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

The language used for the end of things is always de-creation language. It is the opposite of creation language wherein God assembles things, de-creation language has the destruction of things. Instead of the sun and moon giving light, one finds darkness. Instead of the skies expanding, they are rolled up. Etc, etc.

The cross was a turning point in history. From the onset of sin to the cross, things got progressively worse. Sin multiplied. The effects of sin deepened. Until...the cross. Since, things have slowly but progressively gotten better. Jesus is destroying the works of the devil and restoring things as they were.

Proverbs 3:9-10, "Honor the Lord with your wealth and the best part of everything you produce. Then he will fill your barns with grain and your vats will overflow with good wine".

That is how I understand the idiom "Sabbath rest".