Free will and devine sovereignty

[Jordon]

Does human freedom limit God's Freedom.


Well often we here the phrase don't limit God, but often we see Human freedom limiting God,

I like this sermon because it shows that God did indeed grant his creation and creations freedom but he placed his freedom above ours.

For instance God said you can Freely eat from every tree, but he placed a limitation on our choice and freedom, he said but that one you must not eat.

But this isn't an open invitation to discuss Adam and eve as we all know the story, all tho your freely welcome to, it's more about God Limiting our freedom, verses humans limiting Gods freedom with there own freedom, and the reason why.

More to this sermon the question is asked does God for-knowledge equal determinism, which again the sermon says no.

For instance If God knows what your going to say before you say it, does that mean what you say will come to pass on the bases God knows , or does it mean God determined what you would say in advance.

Well no it means that God knows what will come to pass, and everything you say will come to pass, and there nothing anyone person can do to change what words a person says will come to pass, which ultimately points towards our will being in God's hand and his will being greater.

Which is saying that God knowing all things means he knows all things,

But also what ever he ordains before hand also means it will come to pass.

Here's the sermon, that raises meany other Good points, I wonder if there could be an agreement with this against many disagreements

 

[Jordon]

So it looks like deterministic reasoning is governed by human nature not God

 

[GWH]

So it looks like deterministic reasoning is governed by human nature not God

I viewed the first 12 minutes, in which he described the problem in various ways.
Maybe I will view some more later and see if he has a solution.

In the meantime, may I share my brief thoughts:

God's omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated.

I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies between the banks of the river of salvation.

God's sovereignty or omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can be absurd or perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. (That is also incomprehensible.) It also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (per 1Tim. 2:3-4) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

 

[NightTwister]

I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies between the banks of the river of salvation.

That Deism, which is not Christianity.

 

[homwardbound]

Does human freedom limit God's Freedom.


Well often we here the phrase don't limit God, but often we see Human freedom limiting God,

I like this sermon because it shows that God did indeed grant his creation and creations freedom but he placed his freedom above ours.

For instance God said you can Freely eat from every tree, but he placed a limitation on our choice and freedom, he said but that one you must not eat.

But this isn't an open invitation to discuss Adam and eve as we all know the story, all tho your freely welcome to, it's more about God Limiting our freedom, verses humans limiting Gods freedom with there own freedom, and the reason why.

More to this sermon the question is asked does God for-knowledge equal determinism, which again the sermon says no.

For instance If God knows what your going to say before you say it, does that mean what you say will come to pass on the bases God knows , or does it mean God determined what you would say in advance.

Well no it means that God knows what will come to pass, and everything you say will come to pass, and there nothing anyone person can do to change what words a person says will come to pass, which ultimately points towards our will being in God's hand and his will being greater.

Which is saying that God knowing all things means he knows all things,

But also what ever he ordains before hand also means it will come to pass.

Here's the sermon, that raises meany other Good points, I wonder if there could be an agreement with this against many disagreements

The conflict is the flesh in it's dead first birth, needing born again by God for them to stand in trust to God no matter what the situation appears as, to me anyways, since I know what doubt does, has done and can do to anyone over God being Sovereign, trying to reason it out.
The answer God has, man does not accept it. If, gets an answer man doubts and wants to figure it out. If man does not get an answer, then man fights that as well. that has been going on since the first Fall from the first Adam, that started out in doubt and ate, to be God and not depend on God the King of all, to me anyways, no matter how it might be reasoned out by any person. Flesh cannot please God. Only one that did this is Son for us as risen where new life in God's spirit and Truth is given to not doubt, learn at least, thank you.
I remember the first time I went through reading the Bible. I came across a place I did not understand and it seemed as a conflict as the video you put out here is doing, bringing in conflict, doubt of God.
Well, for me I stood and stand with I do not know everything
I think I am fairly intelligent and can go after to know all things, as much as possible.
Like Solomon went through in Ecclesiastes and stated clearly to me. I can do all things, yet if I do not do them with God it is useless, futile and amounts to nothing as in 1 Cor 13:1-3 does
I will say, life here on earth before I pass from here, I bet I can know at least 80% of all things there is here to know. Anyone else?
So there is 20% left. That be where I am at, knowing God exists and is sovereign over all things, God has given free will, I can't fathom of myself and I trust God knows all, loves us all in mercy through Son's done work. That I stand dependent on God for this amazing grace gift
As God said in Isaiah 7:9 if you do not believe me, then I will not establish you. Now seeing that in context, see it from verse 1 -9
Then see spread out, how deep does that go with anyone that doubts God as Sovereign and we have sustainable free will to choose God freely.
Thank you Father

 

[GWH]

That Deism, which is not Christianity.

Deism is belief in the existence of a creator who does not intervene in the universe or interact with humanity (as though He died),
which amounts to practical or functional atheism. The cry of Jesus on the cross, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (in Matt. 27:46) expresses feelings in accord with this view, while the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 28:5-7) provides hope that such feelings do not match the facts. That not what viewing God as creating and permitting MFW means.

 

[Jordon]

The conflict is the flesh in it's dead first birth, needing born again by God for them to stand in trust to God no matter what the situation appears as, to me anyways, since I know what doubt does, has done and can do to anyone over God being Sovereign, trying to reason it out.
The answer God has, man does not accept it. If, gets an answer man doubts and wants to figure it out. If man does not get an answer, then man fights that as well. that has been going on since the first Fall from the first Adam, that started out in doubt and ate, to be God and not depend on God the King of all, to me anyways, no matter how it might be reasoned out by any person. Flesh cannot please God. Only one that did this is Son for us as risen where new life in God's spirit and Truth is given to not doubt, learn at least, thank you.
I remember the first time I went through reading the Bible. I came across a place I did not understand and it seemed as a conflict as the video you put out here is doing, bringing in conflict, doubt of God.
Well, for me I stood and stand with I do not know everything
I think I am fairly intelligent and can go after to know all things, as much as possible.
Like Solomon went through in Ecclesiastes and stated clearly to me. I can do all things, yet if I do not do them with God it is useless, futile and amounts to nothing as in 1 Cor 13:1-3 does
I will say, life here on earth before I pass from here, I bet I can know at least 80% of all things there is here to know. Anyone else?
So there is 20% left. That be where I am at, knowing God exists and is sovereign over all things, God has given free will, I can't fathom of myself and I trust God knows all, loves us all in mercy through Son's done work. That I stand dependent on God for this amazing grace gift
As God said in Isaiah 7:9 if you do not believe me, then I will not establish you. Now seeing that in context, see it from verse 1 -9
Then see spread out, how deep does that go with anyone that doubts God as Sovereign and we have sustainable free will to choose God freely.
Thank you Father

There's many Good points you raised, just out of interest for now as I don't have time to take your full post on board, would you say the number one thing you don't have knowledge of is what God's knows about your future.

Of course they're are other things you may lack knowledge in, which I would be interested to know, what you feel is hard to have complete confidence in knowing with all conviction to believe to be true, which could be anything really.

But for now why do you think God would withhold showing you your future,.in the sense of saying look here's what your going to do tomorrow,.and here's what you could do.

 

[NightTwister]

Deism is belief in the existence of a creator who does not intervene in the universe or interact with humanity (as though He died),
which amounts to practical or functional atheism. The cry of Jesus on the cross, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” (in Matt. 27:46) expresses feelings in accord with this view, while the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 28:5-7) provides hope that such feelings do not match the facts. That not what viewing God as creating and permitting MFW means.

Multi-Factor Wishes?

 

[Jordon]

I viewed the first 12 minutes, in which he described the problem in various ways.
Maybe I will view some more later and see if he has a solution.

In the meantime, may I share my brief thoughts:

God's omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated.

I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies between the banks of the river of salvation.

God's sovereignty or omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can be absurd or perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. (That is also incomprehensible.) It also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (per 1Tim. 2:3-4) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

He's describes God has having a Determinist counsel for determining future outcomes,

Where as a deterministic nature in Human nature trust in his Ability to change that outcome that God has already ordained by his means to all ends.

So a determinist counsel is the all mighties sovereign plan of salvation, for all mankind to trust in his will, only those in sin want more freedom than they have been given, so they become all deterministic about it, in essence they have entered a self contradictory argument. Where by they paint the picture your a determinist for believing the determinist counsel of almighty. What you'll find is there suffering a self deterministic nature.

 

[homwardbound]

There's many Good points you raised, just out of interest for now as I don't have time to take your full post on board, would you say the number one thing you don't have knowledge of is what God's knows about your future.

Of course they're are other things you may lack knowledge in, which I would be interested to know, what you feel is hard to have complete confidence in knowing with all conviction to believe to be true, which could be anything really.

But for now why do you think God would withhold showing you your future,.in the sense of saying look here's what your going to do tomorrow,.and here's what you could do.

Maybe you not notice. Jesus went out every morning to pray to Father. Got his instructions for that day and went to do them, for that day.
One day the disciples went after him, to where he went to pray. They caught up to him. he was finished praying, and they said to him. Master, we want to go back to where we were yesterday. The people are excited. (Reminds me of Lot's wife looking back)
What did Jesus say? Basically, you do what you decide, "I" have my instructions for the day, I am going over here. (they stayed with Jesus)
I am Trusting to God, you get this? I trust God to take care of my tomorrow. Today has enough evil in it to deal with to begin with. Why add to it?
God has got my future under wraps in risen Son that first took away the sin of the world in Father's, Daddy's, PaPa's sight for me and the entire world of people. 1 John 2:1-27, Jesus, yelled it is finished John. 19:30. What was/is finished?
Under Law to perform perfectly is finished, we are made new in the love and mercy given us through Son as risen, that is imputed in us, me at least by Father to all that will not stop belief to this done work of Son for them, these, see daily to walk new in love and mercy to all. no need for anything else.
Past is past so fast as any future is in, in a nano-second
So I see put past in the past, I remain present in the present and stand there in continued trust to God, even if terrible things are going on around you. God has decided we the people can choose this to be joyful, without pride or guilt anymore, seeing Son has taken away the sin of the world for us in Father's sight to us, through the done perfect work of Son first.
Mark 1:35-38
Love to all, started at the willing physical death of Son first. where in the risen life we are offered new life in God's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24
Jesus is calling, answer or decline. Yet God remains in love and mercy to us all, continues the call in each of us, to learn truth over error. Best to follow Dad, who knows best as even Jesus said to the people in Matthew 19
With man it is impossible, with God, Father of Son all things are possible. Today it is done in Son, once for us all to either believe it or not. Consciously each know their choice
Make the choice, between God and you personally, and if do believe God, then the new will begin in you too, thank you

 

[Jordon]

Maybe you not notice. Jesus went out every morning to pray to Father. Got his instructions for that day and went to do them, for that day.
One day the disciples went after him, to where he went to pray. They caught up to him. he was finished praying, and they said to him. Master, we want to go back to where we were yesterday. The people are excited. (Reminds me of Lot's wife looking back)
What did Jesus say? Basically, you do what you decide, "I" have my instructions for the day, I am going over here. (they stayed with Jesus)
I am Trusting to God, you get this? I trust God to take care of my tomorrow. Today has enough evil in it to deal with to begin with. Why add to it?
God has got my future under wraps in risen Son that first took away the sin of the world in Father's, Daddy's, PaPa's sight for me and the entire world of people. 1 John 2:1-27, Jesus, yelled it is finished John. 19:30. What was/is finished?
Under Law to perform perfectly is finished, we are made new in the love and mercy given us through Son as risen, that is imputed in us, me at least by Father to all that will not stop belief to this done work of Son for them, these, see daily to walk new in love and mercy to all. no need for anything else.
Past is past so fast as any future is in, in a nano-second
So I see put past in the past, I remain present in the present and stand there in continued trust to God, even if terrible things are going on around you. God has decided we the people can choose this to be joyful, without pride or guilt anymore, seeing Son has taken away the sin of the world for us in Father's sight to us, through the done perfect work of Son first.
Mark 1:35-38
Love to all, started at the willing physical death of Son first. where in the risen life we are offered new life in God's Spirit and Truth John 4:23-24
Jesus is calling, answer or decline. Yet God remains in love and mercy to us all, continues the call in each of us, to learn truth over error. Best to follow Dad, who knows best as even Jesus said to the people in Matthew 19
With man it is impossible, with God, Father of Son all things are possible. Today it is done in Son, once for us all to either believe it or not. Consciously each know their choice
Make the choice, between God and you personally, and if do believe God, then the new will begin in you too, thank you

Nice answer and one i was shooting for , and I also dwell on the lord everyday and at all times he gives me a reason to trust in his will, and is also giving me something to do for tomorrow.

Like trusting in the lord that for instant If I am kind and giving to people and to myself , that is giving me something to do. And there is plenty of things a person can do tomorrow with those too sentiments alone,

Even a plan can be revealed for tomorrow in prayer with these two sentiments alone, more so to a person who dwells in his hope, and his living hope in which we where saved, that by trusting in his will, that the sovereign lord will answer to anyone who trusts in his will to be done, through prayer that you want to please him.

The only way his will can grow in you is to be still in hope, where his will power grows strong in you. And if you really are in stillness of peace and hope for the right reasons you do indeed get assurance from him for tomorrow,

He may even say don't worry about tomorrow, as what will be will be, all be wants from you is for you to overcome with his kindness he has placed in your heart.

 

[homwardbound]

Nice answer and one i was shooting for , and I also dwell on the lord everyday and at all times he gives me a reason to trust in his will, and is also giving me something to do for tomorrow.

Like trusting in the lord that for instant If I am kind and giving to people and to myself , that is giving me something to do. And there is plenty of things a person can do tomorrow with those too sentiments alone,

Even a plan can be revealed for tomorrow in prayer with these two sentiments alone, more so to a person who dwells in his hope, and his living hope in which we where saved, that by trusting in his will, that the sovereign lord will answer to anyone who trusts in his will to be done, through prayer that you want to please him.

The only way his will can grow in you is to be still in hope, where his will power grows strong in you. And if you really are in stillness of peace and hope for the right reasons you do indeed get assurance from him for tomorrow,

He may even say don't worry about tomorrow, as what will be will be, all be wants from you is for you to overcome with his kindness he has placed in your heart.

This new life given free of any charges is not a work of flesh nature anymore. As is in first birth, that we people learn to be independent of others, be yourself and love all. Actually keeps one, anyone from dependency on Father in risen Son for them. What?
Hope is not complete is it? And before the cross under Law, the hope was prominent Hebrews 11 by Faith, and hope got, gets in the way. As man wants to know and seriously has no need to know anymore today after the cross, in the risen Son all is completed but the decision to believe God, that Son is risen where new life for them is given. Left, Only to decide to trust God loves us all, period, then the new life offered begins. Yet man still in the way of God and Son for them, trying to be better than others. Man wants, tries and that can be good yet might not be either. Not my will Father rather your will Father not mine.
I see take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ
Now how can one, anyone do that, when we all are in flesh that is not redeemed yet?
Reckon, self dead to first birth of flesh, be willingly dead Acts 17:28, Galatians 2:20, Col 1:21-22
To see new, thank you this be between God and you personally first above everyone and everything else first, Then one will do accordingly to God's true love for all 1 Cor 13:4-7, that God imputes in his kids, which many do not see this until they continue in it, no matter what troubles happen to them as like Job did in the book of Job, deeper in Jesus. These will not let go of God's love for us all
Psalm 100:4, 103:12

 

[Jordon]

This new life given free of any charges is not a work of flesh nature anymore. As is in first birth, that we people learn to be independent of others, be yourself and love all. Actually keeps one, anyone from dependency on Father in risen Son for them. What?
Hope is not complete is it? And before the cross under Law, the hope was prominent Hebrews 11 by Faith, and hope got, gets in the way. As man wants to know and seriously has no need to know anymore today after the cross, in the risen Son all is completed but the decision to believe God, that Son is risen where new life for them is given. Left, Only to decide to trust God loves us all, period, then the new life offered begins. Yet man still in the way of God and Son for them, trying to be better than others. Man wants, tries and that can be good yet might not be either. Not my will Father rather your will Father not mine.
I see take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ
Now how can one, anyone do that, when we all are in flesh that is not redeemed yet?
Reckon, self dead to first birth of flesh, be willingly dead Acts 17:28, Galatians 2:20, Col 1:21-22
To see new, thank you this be between God and you personally first above everyone and everything else first, Then one will do accordingly to God's true love for all 1 Cor 13:4-7, that God imputes in his kids, which many do not see this until they continue in it, no matter what troubles happen to them as like Job did in the book of Job, deeper in Jesus. These will not let go of God's love for us all
Psalm 100:4, 103:12

His life free of charges, you mean the lords life is free of any charges he placed in you ?

That would completely different to his life he first placed in mankind which he did charge his life with making his life owe what he created his life for. What could it be that he made his life owe in mankind

 

[Jordon]

[

This new life given free of any charges is not a work of flesh nature anymore. As is in first birth, that we people learn to be independent of others, be yourself and love all. Actually keeps one, anyone from dependency on Father in risen Son for them. What?
Hope is not complete is it? And before the cross under Law, the hope was prominent Hebrews 11 by Faith, and hope got, gets in the way. As man wants to know and seriously has no need to know anymore today after the cross, in the risen Son all is completed but the decision to believe God, that Son is risen where new life for them is given. Left, Only to decide to trust God loves us all, period, then the new life offered begins. Yet man still in the way of God and Son for them, trying to be better than others. Man wants, tries and that can be good yet might not be either. Not my will Father rather your will Father not mine.
I see take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ
Now how can one, anyone do that, when we all are in flesh that is not redeemed yet?
Reckon, self dead to first birth of flesh, be willingly dead Acts 17:28, Galatians 2:20, Col 1:21-22
To see new, thank you this be between God and you personally first above everyone and everything else first, Then one will do accordingly to God's true love for all 1 Cor 13:4-7, that God imputes in his kids, which many do not see this until they continue in it, no matter what troubles happen to them as like Job did in the book of Job, deeper in Jesus. These will not let go of God's love for us all
Psalm 100:4, 103:12.

Your post seems to just make statements on the bases I'm saying something wrong, you keep using the word period against me, after raising a point of view followed by a declaration that your belief you have makes absolute over a belief you haven't even asked me how i believe of what your making an absolute about to me when addressing me ?

 

[homwardbound]

His life free of charges, you mean the lords life is free of any charges he placed in you ?

That would completely different to his life he first placed in mankind which he did charge his life with making his life owe what he created his life for. What could it be that he made his life owe in mankind

willing, time for us to be willing as well, you think to God Father's lead. I think and know, not that I got it perfect, God does for us to be new in love and mercy also, will we be?
John 13:34

 

[Jordon]

willing, time for us to be willing as well, you think to God Father's lead. I think and know, not that I got it perfect, God does for us to be new in love and mercy also, will we be?
John 13:34

again you address me with what you think I think ?

 

[homwardbound]

[ Your post seems to just make statements on the bases I'm saying something wrong, you keep using the word period against me, after raising a point of view followed by a declaration that your belief you have makes absolute over a belief you haven't even asked me how i believe of what your making an absolute about to me when addressing me ?

Sorry, you are taking things as if I am saying things against you.
I am not there is no condemnation for those in Son, as you are a believer too
I just share what I am given to edify not accuse, abuse or to harm anyone or even excuse
Are you looking for acceptance in what you share, Do you need that?
God has already accepted us all as forgiven Eph 1:6-7 It is well with your Soul by god not anyone else, for us all to choose as you have chosen and god knows. so you safe Love from God to us all
Love you Brother deeper than you might know

I do understand thought(s) that get n our heads. And many a times it is gotten there from evil. Time to maybe discern Matthew 10:16-20. I am sharing this not accusing you or anyone as if I know more, I do not God knows it all Phil 3:12-20
Love and mercy from God through Son is for us all to rest in Hebrews 4:9-13

 

[homwardbound]

again you address me with what you think I think ?

You are misunderstanding me, I will now leave it alone. Not here to abuse or accuse or even excuse, I will not answer you anymore, since you say you are offended by my posts, never meant that way
Thank you

 

[Jordon]

You are misunderstanding me, I will now leave it alone. Not here to abuse or accuse or even excuse, I will not answer you anymore, since you say you are offended by my posts, never meant that way
Thank you

don't see how making statements about trusting in his will is me looking for acceptance of what I believe sorry.

Trusting in his will means you will be made to believe when you need to believe in something,.or in anything you need help in believing, even when lead of spirit.

It doesn't just apply to those who are not saved.

 

[Jordon]

I viewed the first 12 minutes, in which he described the problem in various ways.
Maybe I will view some more later and see if he has a solution.

I'm still waiting hence why I haven't fully engaged in your reply.

Ive been waiting 2 days ? Have you got round to it.

Anyhow there's always next week after all those who wait, well the best things will come.