Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?

[AnandaHya]

i'm not degrading anything just stating that all should be tested by the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and through Prayer. the OC is not an exception.

we do not judge the men in the scriptures by their lives but by the words they spoke when inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the same way I would not judge your OC traditions or men but their words and if they hold to sound doctrine as revealed by the Holy Spirit and in His Holy Scriptures.

To say that you need a "teacher" other than the Holy Spirit to test others is to place your trust in other men and give them the power and obedience that should only be given to GOD.

If your pastor told the congregation to commit a sin, would it be just the pastor's fault or do the people hold some accountablity?

In the same way I believe each beleiver will be held in account to what they believe and follow in their lives. If they fail to test, learn and discern it is not to the account of the teacher or pastor alone but to theirs as well.

the teacher will be held to account by those they disciple and if they accurately equip them to resist the devil and be able to plant and bear good fruit through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but a mature Christian is responsible to pray daily, meditate upon His Word and discern good from evil and follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit in their own individual lives. NOT as their pastor or priest dictates but as GOD dictates through HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Scotth1960]

i'm not degrading anything just stating that all should be tested by the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and through Prayer. the OC is not an exception.

we do not judge the men in the scriptures by their lives but by the words they spoke when inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the same way I would not judge your OC traditions or men but their words and if they hold to sound doctrine as revealed by the Holy Spirit and in His Holy Scriptures.

To say that you need a "teacher" other than the Holy Spirit to test others is to place your trust in other men and give them the power and obedience that should only be given to GOD.

If your pastor told the congregation to commit a sin, would it be just the pastor's fault or do the people hold some accountablity?

In the same way I believe each beleiver will be held in account to what they believe and follow in their lives. If they fail to test, learn and discern it is not to the account of the teacher or pastor alone but to theirs as well.

the teacher will be held to account by those they disciple and if they accurately equip them to resist the devil and be able to plant and bear good fruit through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but a mature Christian is responsible to pray daily, meditate upon His Word and discern good from evil and follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit in their own individual lives. NOT as their pastor or priest dictates but as GOD dictates through HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

To say all a Christian needs is the Holy Spirit and himself, with a big emphasis on himself, is to have oneself, not necessarily the Holy Spirit, as one's teacher. In the end, it's personal opinion that trumps the voice of the Holy Spirit. In the end, one is one's own mediator between God and oneself. One does not need any church, and one would logically then reject any sacraments like baptism and communion. This is what Protestantism in the extreme leads to: Quakerism, or Unitarianism. The Trinity is denied.
If one is one's own priest, one can anoint oneself as a Christian, and save oneself. Why does one even need Jesus Christ, then? If one is an infallible guide to receiving the Holy Spirit all on one's own, why does one even need the Bible? Or why not interpret the Bible "for oneself", and tell oneself what the Bible means, according to whatever you as an individual want the Bible to mean. This is an inevitable result of Protestantism's heresy of private interpretation and of sola Scriptura.

 

[Scotth1960]

i'm not degrading anything just stating that all should be tested by the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and through Prayer. the OC is not an exception.

we do not judge the men in the scriptures by their lives but by the words they spoke when inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the same way I would not judge your OC traditions or men but their words and if they hold to sound doctrine as revealed by the Holy Spirit and in His Holy Scriptures.

To say that you need a "teacher" other than the Holy Spirit to test others is to place your trust in other men and give them the power and obedience that should only be given to GOD.

If your pastor told the congregation to commit a sin, would it be just the pastor's fault or do the people hold some accountablity?

In the same way I believe each beleiver will be held in account to what they believe and follow in their lives. If they fail to test, learn and discern it is not to the account of the teacher or pastor alone but to theirs as well.

the teacher will be held to account by those they disciple and if they accurately equip them to resist the devil and be able to plant and bear good fruit through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but a mature Christian is responsible to pray daily, meditate upon His Word and discern good from evil and follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit in their own individual lives. NOT as their pastor or priest dictates but as GOD dictates through HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

Dear AnandaHya, See my thread #42, to see what extremes the idea of "me and Jesus alone", can lead. Of course I was exaggerating in #42 ridiculously, to make a point. Sola scriptura IS RIDICULOUS, and it CAN and DOES lead to SOME RIDICULOUS RESULTS! If one does not need anyone other than the Holy Spirit as a teacher, how does one know the difference between what the Holy Spirit is saying and what you think the Holy Spirit is saying? What criterion of truth do you have other than a subjective one? If all traditions by other men are rejected, aren't you relying on the tradition of another man (woman/child, etc.), oneself as a man (or woman)? Pastors or priests don't dictate. And God doesn't dictate. He commands out of love, not tyranny.
All of what you say above is contradicted by the Scriptures: "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation." If one is accountable only to oneself, one's interpretation is private. We should learn from the Church fathers and from the Orthodox Christians of today.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

Yes they are.

Nalu!
i been saving your seat brotha.

 

[cronjecj]

YES THEY ARE

i agree...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

All of what you say above is contradicted by the Scriptures: "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation." If one is accountable only to oneself, one's interpretation is private. We should learn from the Church fathers and from the Orthodox Christians of today.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

all you are saying is that we should learn from someone else's private interpretation...

 

[zone]

Dear AnandaHya, See my thread #42, to see what extremes the idea of "me and Jesus alone", can lead. Of course I was exaggerating in #42 ridiculously, to make a point. Sola scriptura IS RIDICULOUS, and it CAN and DOES lead to SOME RIDICULOUS RESULTS! If one does not need anyone other than the Holy Spirit as a teacher, how does one know the difference between what the Holy Spirit is saying and what you think the Holy Spirit is saying? What criterion of truth do you have other than a subjective one? If all traditions by other men are rejected, aren't you relying on the tradition of another man (woman/child, etc.), oneself as a man (or woman)? Pastors or priests don't dictate. And God doesn't dictate. He commands out of love, not tyranny.
All of what you say above is contradicted by the Scriptures: "No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation." If one is accountable only to oneself, one's interpretation is private. We should learn from the Church fathers and from the Orthodox Christians of today.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

when will your church stop MISUSING certain passages?

yes, we are not to TEACH a personal interpretaton of what goes against what's clearly written.

but that is NOT WHAT PETER WAS SAYING!

we have the priviledge of studying to LEARN and we won't always understand immediately and will at times specualte and meditate until we DO understand. THAT'S WHY WE ARE COMMANDED TO REMAIN IN THE DOCTRINE AND STUDY! and test everyone's teaching.

but we need teachers.

however, the scriptures are easily understood (it takes discipline and hard work) for the Holy Spirit filled reader if they would only just READ IT AS IT IS WRITTEN under prayerful submission leading of the Spirit!

HERE'S WHAT PETER WAS SAYING!

2 Peter 1:20
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


why must i, an "heretical bible-worshipping mini-pope protestant" show you this SIMPLE TRUTH????? (AGAIN)?

 

[Muskokaman]

To say all a Christian needs is the Holy Spirit and himself, with a big emphasis on himself, is to have oneself, not necessarily the Holy Spirit, as one's teacher. In the end, it's personal opinion that trumps the voice of the Holy Spirit. In the end, one is one's own mediator between God and oneself. One does not need any church, and one would logically then reject any sacraments like baptism and communion. This is what Protestantism in the extreme leads to: Quakerism, or Unitarianism. The Trinity is denied.
If one is one's own priest, one can anoint oneself as a Christian, and save oneself. Why does one even need Jesus Christ, then? If one is an infallible guide to receiving the Holy Spirit all on one's own, why does one even need the Bible? Or why not interpret the Bible "for oneself", and tell oneself what the Bible means, according to whatever you as an individual want the Bible to mean. This is an inevitable result of Protestantism's heresy of private interpretation and of sola Scriptura.

ONE GOD SCOTT NOT THREE
ANNOINTING IS FOR KINGS SCOTT NOT COMMONERS
YOU BELIEVE THE TEACHINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT TO YOU BY ORTHODOXY. OK THEN
1 THESSALONIANS 5:21 PROVE ALL THINGS HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD
YOUR THE ONE SAYING EMPHASIS ON OURSELVES NOT US BUD!

 

[NiceneChristian]

all you are saying is that we should learn from someone else's private interpretation...

You're a bit confused on what he exactly means. He is taking 1 Peter 1, "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture comes about from one's own interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke, being brought along by the Holy Spirit. "

 

[Scotth1960]

all you are saying is that we should learn from someone else's private interpretation...

That's wrong. It's wrong to assume (without proof) that each and every interpretation of the Scriptures is just a private interpretation. If that is so, the Bible is not true, for it is an interpretation of what God is saying. And it's not a private interpretation: it's a public revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles who wrote the NT!
God bless you!

 

[Scotth1960]

ONE GOD SCOTT NOT THREE
ANNOINTING IS FOR KINGS SCOTT NOT COMMONERS
YOU BELIEVE THE TEACHINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT TO YOU BY ORTHODOXY. OK THEN
1 THESSALONIANS 5:21 PROVE ALL THINGS HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD
YOUR THE ONE SAYING EMPHASIS ON OURSELVES NOT US BUD!

ONE GOD: THREE DIVINE PERSONS: FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. TO DENY THE THREENESS OF THE ONE GOD IS TO DENY THAT MATTHEW 28:19, I JOHN 5:7, AND OTHER SCRIPTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, ARE IN THE BIBLE. GOD BLESS YOU. AND PLEASE LEARN TO SPELL, MUSKOKAMAN. ANOINTING HAS ONLY THREE "N'S", NOT FOUR! HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

 

[Scotth1960]

when will your church stop MISUSING certain passages?

yes, we are not to TEACH a personal interpretaton of what goes against what's clearly written.

but that is NOT WHAT PETER WAS SAYING!

we have the priviledge of studying to LEARN and we won't always understand immediately and will at times specualte and meditate until we DO understand. THAT'S WHY WE ARE COMMANDED TO REMAIN IN THE DOCTRINE AND STUDY! and test everyone's teaching.

but we need teachers.

however, the scriptures are easily understood (it takes discipline and hard work) for the Holy Spirit filled reader if they would only just READ IT AS IT IS WRITTEN under prayerful submission leading of the Spirit!

HERE'S WHAT PETER WAS SAYING!

2 Peter 1:20
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


why must i, an "heretical bible-worshipping mini-pope protestant" show you this SIMPLE TRUTH????? (AGAIN)?

Apparently Zone, You haven't read 1st Corinthians chapter 14.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

Apparently Zone, You haven't read 1st Corinthians chapter 14.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

hi scott.

your standard evasive stuff when faced with a problem you make concerning your claims of OC infallibility and your few poorly interpreted proof texts.

are you advocating i stop posting? just me, or all women?

last time i looked there is a single forum: it does not say MEN>>>> ...go here
WOMEN >>>> go here.

1) this isn't church. it isn't the OC church, i likely wouldn't be here.
2) things are done in decency and in order in my church (lutheran): neither men nor women speak, but only the pastor: we repeat our confessional creeds and pray. that's it.
3) if charismatics understood that chapter we wouldn't have the huge problem we do. that is primarily an historical letter concerning the miraculous foundation gifts. don't you know that?.......does your church?

now.
are you going to address the fact the you misused Peter's statement?
like you misuse Pauls in Thess to claim traditions he never taught?

you're free to do it, and to claim your church says its true and they infallible, but please stop accusing all protestants of being wild-eyed false prophets.

please.
thank you.

 

[Scotth1960]

hi scott.

your standard evasive stuff when faced with a problem you make concerning your claims of OC infallibility and your few poorly interpreted proof texts.

are you advocating i stop posting? just me, or all women?

last time i looked there is a single forum: it does not say MEN>>>> ...go here
WOMEN >>>> go here.

1) this isn't church. it isn't the OC church, i likely wouldn't be here.
2) things are done in decency and in order in my church (lutheran): neither men nor women speak, but only the pastor: we repeat our confessional creeds and pray. that's it.
3) if charismatics understood that chapter we wouldn't have the huge problem we do. that is primarily an historical letter concerning the miraculous foundation gifts. don't you know that?.......does your church?

now.
are you going to address the fact the you misused Peter's statement?
zone:like you misuse Pauls in Thess to claim traditions he never taught? scotth1960: Martin Luther misuses Paul in Romans 3:28 to claim the tradition of sola fide that Paul never taught. When asked why he, Luther, added the word "alone" to St. Paul in Romans 3:28, Luther said. "It is so. And I will have it so. And my (own) will is reason enough. It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." Okay! So much for a lack of pride. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington



you're free to do it, and to claim your church says its true and they infallible, but please stop accusing all protestants of being wild-eyed false prophets.

please.
thank you.

Dear Zone; God bless you. Lord have mercy on all of us. Lutherans follow the traditions of a man, just one man, Luther, and his followers. The OC follows the traditions of God preached by many, many men, many many saints and OC fathers, starting with the 12 apostles and the 70 disciples. If we want to know which tradition is true, we should be able to trace it back to the first century AD. Luther's traditions date to between 1517 AD and 1546 AD. You can speak all you like, it is a free world. It doesn't guarantee what you say is the truth, and is a real true interpretation of the Scriptures. Lutherans also follow Luther when they want to, not all the time. They don't believe everything Luther would have said. Luther would not have approved of women pastors. So most Lutherans today are semi-Lutherans. Except for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, which considers all the specific Lutheran traditions to be infallible.
"accusing all protestants of being wild-eyed false prophets"? When did I say that? Perhaps the Protestants know that of themselves, and they know it is so. Only God will judge the hearts of all. I can't say anything other than what I know. Lutheranism is in heresy and schism because of Filioque (which contradicts our Lord in John 15:26), in heresy and schism because of sola scriptura and sola fide, and in heresy because Luther's justification for his doctrine of justification by faith alone is Luther himself as a person: we must believe what Luther said on justification by faith alone (sola fide) simply because Luther himself said it! So Luther said, "It is so. And I will have it so. And my will is reason enough. It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." Where are such words found in the Bible, or in the spirit of a renewed Christian mind and a born again soul regenerated by the Holy Spirit Who proceedeth from the Father alone?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[BananaPie]

it is kind of ironic to be posting scripture to support the claim that not everyone can properly interpret scripture...

but it does show that even people who do not agree with 'sola scriptura' unconsciously acknowledge scripture as the ultimate authority...

LOL. You're so witty!
So, if Yours Truely sings you a song, what do you think are my chances that nobody in the entire forums will through rocks at me?

...I can see clearly now the rain is gone...

 

[Scotth1960]

LOL. You're so witty!
So, if Yours Truely sings you a song, what do you think are my chances that nobody in the entire forums will through rocks at me?

...I can see clearly now the rain is gone...

According to Scripture, the Church is the ultimate authority, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). It doesn't say the Scripture is the pillar and ground of the truth; the Church that Christ founded (Matt. 16:18) is given the Holy Spirit by Christ (John 16:13) so the Church has the faith of the saints (Eph. 4; Jude 3).

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

According to Scripture, the Church is the ultimate authority, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). It doesn't say the Scripture is the pillar and ground of the truth; the Church that Christ founded (Matt. 16:18) is given the Holy Spirit by Christ (John 16:13) so the Church has the faith of the saints (Eph. 4; Jude 3).

now if only anyone could actually -prove- that their church was the one jesus founded...

 

[cronjecj]

The scripture is made so that even a child should understand them and the wise should not.

In the same manner is the simplicity of Christ.

 

[jimmydiggs]

now if only anyone could actually -prove- that their church was the one jesus founded...

Quick! Let's use failed logic like they do!

If the EOC and RCC disagree on anything, they're wrong and we're right.
Guess what? They disagree!!!
So we're right and they're wrong!


Huzzah!

 

[Scotth1960]

Quick! Let's use failed logic like they do!

If the EOC and RCC disagree on anything, they're wrong and we're right.
Guess what? They disagree!!!
So we're right and they're wrong!


Huzzah!

Dear huzzahjimmydiggs:

Do you say the Spirit proceeds from both the Father AND THE SON? Jesus Christ says the Spirit proceeds from THE FATHER (ALONE) (Cf. John 15:26). THE EOC teaches the same thing that John 15:26 teaches. It was over this one verse, and over the other one verse, Matthew 16:18, that Roman catholicism apostasized (fell away from the Christian faith) over papal jurisdiction (earthly power) and the procession of the Spirit.
What do you say if you're right, if you're a Protestant. You believe in "faith alone", "because Martin Luther says so." When asked why he was adding the word "alone" to St. Paul in Romans 3:28, Martin Luther said, "It is so. And I will have it so. And my will is reason enough. It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." If you as a Protestant say "faith alone" for salvation, you are depending on the authority of Martin Luther, for Luther was the first one to insist on "faith alone" in the sixteenth century. Perhaps you don't believe in justification "by faith alone". If so, good. I don't want to say whether or not you agree with Luther. But if you're a Protestant, you do, as all Protestants are united in teaching "faith alone".
God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington