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Pilgrimshope said:
The whole story of Israel in the ot teaches that repeatedly their law teaches it as well.

It’s just a matter of canonization . Like always with men we disagree about which books were inspired and which weren’t. The Maccabean books for instance during the time period between Malachi which promised the coming messiah with a new covenant and “ Elijah the prophet “ and …. The birth of Jesus and beginning of the gospel

what they are , is Jewish records of what happened during that time period . They don’t belong in the New Testament , and also they aren’t prophetic and carry no message and promise of the messiah so they don’t fit in the Old Testament either . Gods word is always about Christ in some manner even in the ot , the Maccabean books aren’t .

They are most likely true records of events in Jewish history during that particular time period .

Interesting reading and also helps to give some ideas regarding segments in the book of Daniel bit truly they aren’t the same message as the old and New Testament nor the same intent I find some of the things about Antiochus interesting and consider them factual accounts bit definately they just don’t fit with the ot or new
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Your not Catholic ok,
When it comes to the doctrine of free will
What denomination teaches human conscience has the final decision over salvation. Protestant or Catholic.

Lets see all the people defending the protestants answer this question.

I bet they won't
 
Pilgrimshope said:
The whole story of Israel in the ot teaches that repeatedly their law teaches it as well.

It’s just a matter of canonization . Like always with men we disagree about which books were inspired and which weren’t. The Maccabean books for instance during the time period between Malachi which promised the coming messiah with a new covenant and “ Elijah the prophet “ and …. The birth of Jesus and beginning of the gospel

what they are , is Jewish records of what happened during that time period . They don’t belong in the New Testament , and also they aren’t prophetic and carry no message and promise of the messiah so they don’t fit in the Old Testament either . Gods word is always about Christ in some manner even in the ot , the Maccabean books aren’t .

They are most likely true records of events in Jewish history during that particular time period .

Interesting reading and also helps to give some ideas regarding segments in the book of Daniel bit truly they aren’t the same message as the old and New Testament nor the same intent I find some of the things about Antiochus interesting and consider them factual accounts bit definately they just don’t fit with the ot or new
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right ok

So let me be clear I have been arguing things from a Catholic view point a little bit to get the message across,

But I'm not catholic,

Now first point is,

If the book of Maccabees is lining up with Daniel and other books in the Hebrew cannon then why should that book be removed from our protestant bible, if there is a mistake or human error in the Maccabees bible about praying for the dead.

Do you understand my question now along with @CS1

As for purgatory and that stupid idea, I've just given a full explanation in the understanding stupid purgotry thread addressed to cs1

It basically means you can pray for a saint in heaven and receive there suffering and become a saint,

Which denies the authority of Christ

And it gets worse you can become a great saint by praying longer.

Which means there teaching human free will has the final authority over salvation
 
Pilgrimshope said:
aim certwinly
Not catholic and don’t agree with some of thier beliefs but

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a few factors in Gods word that differentiates
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That refers to physical death. Paul rebukes the Corinthians for their wrong attitude to fellow believers at the Lord's Supper. He warned that some got sick and some died.

Different sin has different consequences. Robbing a bank and stealing a pen from work are equally theft. But you won't go to prison for stealing a pen.
 
Jordon said:
Your not Catholic ok,
When it comes to the doctrine of free will
What denomination teaches human conscience has the final decision over salvation. Protestant or Catholic.

Lets see all the people defending the protestants answer this question.

I bet they won't
Click to expand...
So your just hoping for random arguments ?
 
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Gideon300 said:
That refers to physical death. Paul rebukes the Corinthians for their wrong attitude to fellow believers at the Lord's Supper. He warned that some got sick and some died.

Different sin has different consequences. Robbing a bank and stealing a pen from work are equally theft. But you won't go to prison for stealing a pen.
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Right that was my point in quoting the verse that says some sin is recognized as sin of death and other sin is not recognized as sin of death . God differentiates
 
Jordon said:
Its laughable this place,

This is a debate, but you can call it an argument.

If you want
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It seems like you just want any argument though was my point for the sake of arguing …… I’ll let someone else do that with ya
 
Gideon300 said:
That refers to physical death. Paul rebukes the Corinthians for their wrong attitude to fellow believers at the Lord's Supper. He warned that some got sick and some died.

Different sin has different consequences. Robbing a bank and stealing a pen from work are equally theft. But you won't go to prison for stealing a pen.
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“Paul rebukes the Corinthians for their wrong attitude to fellow believers at the Lord's Supper. He warned that some got sick and some died.”

And you believe Paul is defining a sin there to them regarding communion ?
 
Pilgrimshope said:
It seems like you just want any argument though was my point for the sake of arguing …… I’ll let someone else do that with ya
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well it's ok find yourself somewhere else then.and if you feel like answering the question I still haven't had an answer to after months of effort, then by all means,. answer

If you want to that is , I mean you don't have to of course as you do have free will. And it's not like I'm giving you an ultimatum

So you can always take your own authority.

But yeah in the saved person the authority in a spiritual sense normally comes from God.
 
Gideon300 said:
Yes.
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“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:2-4, 7, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Jordon said:
well it's ok find yourself somewhere else then.and if you feel like answering the question I still haven't had an answer to after months of effort, then by all means,. answer

If you want to that is , I mean you don't have to of course as you do have free will. And it's not like I'm giving you an ultimatum

So you can always take your own authority.

But yeah in the saved person the authority in a spiritual sense normally comes from God.
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“I still haven't had an answer to after months of effort, then by all means,. answer”

Probably because you’re not looking for any answers but instead to argue any point you can bring up . And naw I’m too old to waste time arguing
 
Pilgrimshope said:
“I still haven't had an answer to after months of effort, then by all means,. answer”

Probably because you’re not looking for any answers but instead to argue any point you can bring up . And naw I’m too old to waste time arguing
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ok well my door can open and close to.
 
Jordon said:
Is his word something that is able to bind the conscience as absolute, The Father the son and the holy spirit are all equal, so the whole word is said believed to be the only authority that is absolute in binding the conscience,

Where as people won't answer how how is word able to bind the conscience,

So do you know ?
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that is a very Stange answer to a simple question. IS The Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible the final authority when HE is speaking in context to the Church yes or no.
 
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Jordon said:
listen I don't even know what purgaotry means,

And as far as ive learnt so far it means to have your sins forgiven to after confession in catholic faith also, and it means to be purified in paradise also.

The praying for dead part, what is that ?

Could you tell me
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then how can you speak on what you do not know and say you believe in purgatory when you don't know what it means ? I asking respectfully. There is no prayer for the dead.
 
CS1 said:
that is a very Stange answer to a simple question. IS The Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible the final authority when HE is speaking in context to the Church yes or no.
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I've answered your question in understanding purgatory thread,

If you wish not to accept my answer than dont,

I've told you The authority of Christ is stripped away from catholics with the purgatory belief they have.
I want to get the bottom of the true meaning of purification

That is all.

I want to know if I can send prayers to my mum
 
Jordon said:
Do you think that human conscience has the final say over salvation Yes or no
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no human conscience if formed in the world the mind of the Believer is renewed by the word of God. Human intellect is carnal and cannot discern the spiritual things of GOD. Romans 8:6-7 our mind must be renewed Romans 12:2
 
CS1 said:
no human conscience if formed in the world the mind of the Believer is renewed by the word of God. Human intellect is carnal and cannot discern the spiritual things of GOD. Romans 8:6-7 our mind must be renewed Romans 12:2
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ok well if purgatory proves that Catholics are preaching human free will can decide the final decision of salvation in purgatory, which they are preaching this, if you watch the Catholic sermon I posted in the understanding purgatory thread,

Then why is there free will herecy allowed to call people Calvinistic pigs here all the time
 
Jordon said:
right ok

So let me be clear I have been arguing things from a Catholic view point a little bit to get the message across,

But I'm not catholic,

Now first point is,

If the book of Maccabees is lining up with Daniel and other books in the Hebrew cannon then why should that book be removed from our protestant bible, if there is a mistake or human error in the Maccabees bible about praying for the dead.

Do you understand my question now along with @CS1

As for purgatory and that stupid idea, I've just given a full explanation in the understanding stupid purgotry thread addressed to cs1

It basically means you can pray for a saint in heaven and receive there suffering and become a saint,

Which denies the authority of Christ

And it gets worse you can become a great saint by praying longer.

Which means there teaching human free will has the final authority over salvation
Click to expand...



why are the books of the Maccabees not canonized?



Historical Context: The Books of the Maccabees recount the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid Empire, which occurred long after the recognized prophetic era had ended. The Jewish Scriptures, known as the Tanakh, were solidified by the first century AD, and the Books of the Maccabees were written in the intertestamental period (circa 100 BC), long after this period.

Theological Content: The Books of the Maccabees include miraculous interventions, martyrdoms, and prayers for the dead, which are significant in Catholic theology but not Biblically supported. These themes are not found elsewhere in Scripture and contradict the biblical teaching on salvation and forgiveness.

This is where you have gotten your understanding in context to praying for the dead.

The Bottom Line the book is unbiblical in the light of all Scriptures it doesn't measure up.
 
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