Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

So, you don't know what the grammar in Col1 means and how to answer the questions.

That's a problem, Kroogz.

And, BTW, yes, tomorrow is a new day according to the perfect tense.

It's difficult to understand why some believe the way they do.

Kroogz is following a man named RB Thieme...
he even posted a link for you so you could go check him out.

My recommendation to him and everyone else that claims to be Christian..
is that we should read and hear and put into action what Jesus taught.

Not some guy on YouTube or a book author or anyone that is not following orthodox Christianity.

Not understanding that little word IF is a big problem.

 

[BillyBob]

Gideon...
You think I have something to learn from you???
Yeah. Time to get off this demon-possessed thread.

Matt 7:12
Guess you just lost your salvation. . . .

 

[Toknow]

1 Cor~~But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Tomorrow is a new day huh?

You seem to parrot your teacher...

but do not undersand.

Why?

Because you are TOTALLY unable to provide scrpture to support your position.
What does 1 Cor or Eph 2:8 have to do with that little IF word in Colossians 1:22-23?

NOTHING.

You should read the NT and stop listening to some that are leading you astray.


1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Do you know what FALL AWAY from the faith means?
Do you know why Timothy mentioned doctrines of demons?

1. Paul is saying that it is possible to FALL AWAY from our faith.
No faith = No salvation


2. At the time of the NT some heretical doctrine was already entering into the church.
Having ANY notion AT ALL that we are saved by obedience to God...
is heretical and was rejected by the Apostles in their own lifetime...
especially John.

 

[Toknow]

Matt 7:12
Guess you just lost your salvation. . . .

Not only are you not familiar with NT teachings and reject what Jesus taught...

but you think you're God too.

AND
You DO NOT know how to apply scripture.

 

[BillyBob]

Not only are you not familiar with NT teachings and reject what Jesus taught...

but you think you're God too.

AND
You DO NOT know how to apply scripture.

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
You failed!

 

[HeIsHere]

Wow.
Humility at its best.

Time to get off this crazy thread.

Those that do not undersand scripture
or
Do not accept it
and
Do not believe obedience TO GOD is necessary....

should be left here to grumble amongst themselves.

Rules for thee...... but not for me.

 

[BillyBob]

Rules for thee...... but not for me.

Just pointing out that we all fail, but that does not mean that we lose salvation. God will correct us - but He does not let us slip through His fingers.

 

[HeIsHere]

Just pointing out that we all fail, but that does not mean that we lose salvation. God will correct us - but He does not let us slip through His fingers.

Yes, I understand, my reply was to @Toknow who has a prior history on CC, one she has not denied.

So she preaches obedience for others, but does not apply it so herself, this is typical of people who think salvation can be lost, it is always the other person they want to condemn.

 

[studier]

It's difficult to understand why some believe the way they do.

Kroogz is following a man named RB Thieme...
he even posted a link for you so you could go check him out.

My recommendation to him and everyone else that claims to be Christian..
is that we should read and hear and put into action what Jesus taught.

Not some guy on YouTube or a book author or anyone that is not following orthodox Christianity.

Not understanding that little word IF is a big problem.

You don't know this but I grew up spiritually to a point under Thieme's teaching and have thousands of hours of his teachings and all of his written materials in my past education, went to seminary at his suggestion of a certain seminary, was ordained a pastor-teacher by him near the end of seminary, and later came to disagree with the Free-Grace system of theology that he taught.

He was quite a teacher from the original languages and in the end his main impression on me was to learn them. Due to a few reasons, I learned mainly Greek, and any Hebrew is nearly gone at this point. I can struggle through it if necessary up to a point.

As I told @Kroogz and at least one other, in the scholarly and leadership ranks of believers RBT was not without criticism. Who isn't? But one of those criticisms was that he turns out parrots who know his 'doctrine' but not the Text, and also that they are very assertive with the 'doctrine' they've learned and view others without that doctrine as losers.

I don't think this is much different for many systematic theologies and for many in the pews today being taught them.

I agree with you on the 'IF' clauses. As I said, that little 2-letter English word is a big one in Scripture and in Greek it's complicated because it can be used different ways.

 

[studier]

You seem to parrot your teacher..

I just read this after I replied to your other post. Interesting that you saw this.

 

[BillyBob]

Yes, I understand, my reply was to @Toknow who has a prior history on CC, one she has not denied.

So she preaches obedience for others, but does not apply it so herself, this is typical of people who think salvation can be lost, it is always the other person they want to condemn.

I would have given you the winner response, but they no longer have it!

 

[Toknow]

Which is it? Granting for the moment that a person can lose his salvation, at what point does the loss take place? The weakness of your position is that it considers salvation in the past tense, without regard to the continuing action of God to continue saving us.

As I've stated in my previous post to you...
you are misrepresenting what I've stated.

Maybe you don't like the ARE BEING SAVED part??


Paul said it, not me.

1 Corinthians 1:18
18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


We are being saved.
It's an ongoing action.

I agree that they are Biblical, but the meaning of each statement needs to be evaluated in the context where it occurs. Take Ephesians 2:8 for example.

In this context, Paul compares our former state, "dead in our trespasses," with our new state, "alive in Christ." You WERE DEAD; But NOW you are ALIVE in Christ. To be "dead" is to be found guilty of offending God, subject to damnation at the final judgment. To be made alive is to be freed from Condemnation,

OK.
Agreed....as to the past tense of SAVED.
When we were saved...
we became saved.

He follows that comparison to say that "you are having been saved through faith." (That is the literal translation of the Greek present participle of "to save." My paraphrase is poor English, but I am trying to convey the meaning of the perfect participle of "to save".

No.

Paul said WE ARE BEING SAVED.
Through faith our salvation is ongoing.

Part of FAITH is belief.
If we believe,,,we will obey.

Seems like you know Greek really well...I'm sure you speak it fluently...this is good.

So you know, without my having to explain,
that TO BELIEVE means TO OBEY.

Jsut as to DISOBEY means TO DISBLIEVE.

If you know what BELIEVE means in Greek,
you'll also know that God expects us to obey Him.

IF we continue to obey Him...
we WILL BE SAVED in the future.

We will be saved in the future
IF we continue in our faith...in our BELIEF...in our obedience.




Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6and then have fallen away,



Hebrews 3:12
12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.


What are they above falling away from?
Faith has to be present to make possible the falling away from it.



1 of 3

 

[Toknow]

2 of 3

The perfect participle in Greek describes a completed action whose results are still present at the time being considered. The core idea is “a past action with ongoing effects.” In English, we usually render it with “having…” or with a relative clause that captures both the completed action and its continuing state.

I don't care too much for language lessons.
I care about what the NT teaches.
I care about what Jesus taught.

This is what Jesus taught:


John 12:47-48
47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Here is a paragraph that fits your flow, honors the Greek nuance of σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε (“you have been saved and remain saved”), and ties directly into your contrast between dead and alive:

Paul’s point in Ephesians 2:8 is that God’s saving work is not a moment you leave behind but a reality He continues to sustain. The perfect tense—“you have been saved”—anchors salvation in a completed act of God’s mercy, but the surrounding context shows that this completed act carries an ongoing, preserving force. God made us alive, raised us, and seated us with Christ, and the same God who acted decisively in the past continues to act in the present to keep us alive in Him. Salvation is not a fragile possession we maintain; it is a living condition God maintains. Those who argue that salvation can be lost often overlook this ongoing dimension of God’s work—that the God who saves is the God who keeps, and the life He gives is not self‑sustained but God‑sustained.

Let's read again:

Ephesians 2:8.9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


We are saved BY FAITH.
IF we lose faith in God...we will no longer be saved since it's faith that saves.
I posted some scripture above that supports my statement that salvation can be lost.
There are many more if needed.

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes sir....no amount of works will save us WITHOUT FAITH....
Because it is FAITH THAT SAVES.

But let's look also at verse 10 which many do not care for:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


We are created for good works...which is exactly what Jesus taught.
In John 12:48 Jesus stated that if we do not receive His words...we will be under judgement.

Next, let's look at Peter. He makes the same argument as Paul and in some ways he states it even more explicitly than Paul. His entire opening paragraph (1 Peter 1:3–9) is built on the same two pillars we found in Ephesians 2:8: a completed saving act and a continuing saving action that God Himself sustains.

Peter describes believers as those who have already been “born again” and who already possess a “living hope”, but he immediately adds that this salvation is also “being guarded by God’s power” until its final unveiling. The perfect participles in the passage point to what God has already done, while the present-tense verbs emphasize what God continues to do. For Peter, salvation is not a past event we must preserve; it is a present reality God preserves. The same God who caused us to be born again continues to shield, sustain, and carry that salvation forward through trials so that our faith—tested and proven—will certainly result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Those who argue that salvation can be lost overlook Peter’s insistence that the ongoing preservation of salvation rests not on human will but on God’s active, guarding power.

Your scripture:

1 Peter 1:3-9

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


You left out the beginning verses,
so let's post all of it and go through it.
Comments will be in green.

1 Peter 1:1-9
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctifying means the action is ongoing.
We are to obey Christ.


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

The imperishable inheritance is our future life in heaven.

5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are protected by God THROUGH FAITH for a salvation that will be revealed at the last time..
this refers to WILL BE SAVED..when we RECEIVE our salvation.
Again, No Faith = No salvation. We must have faith at the time of our death...
and not fall away from it.

6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

What is the proof of our faith if not obedience to Jesus....receiving His word, as He stated in John 12....
Doing the will of the Father in Matthew 7....

This glory and honor will be revealed at the end of everything...our resurrection.

8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

We must BELIEVE IN JESUS.
Follow His teachings/be His disciples.

9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Please note: The OUTCOME of our FAITH will be the salvation of our souls.

All the writers of the NT believed faith msut be ongoing and present at the end of our life.

 

[Toknow]

3 of 3

Where can we read this in the Bible

I don't see that being lost changes anything. God said, "thou shall not murder" which is wrong and evil no matter who does it.

I DID state that doing good works is good even for the unsaved BUT FOR OTHER PERSONS...
NOT for God.

These people are following the law of the land and/or social constructs.

They are NOT following GOD.

Only those that believe God exists and they RECEIVE HIS WORD are required to obey Him.

We are talking about salvation, not discipleship.

Are you saying we could be saved sans being a disciple of Jesus??
Salvation and discipleship go hand in hand.

I'm saying that Jesus' statement is a descriptive comparison between two kinds of people: those who continue in his word and those who don't. A descriptive comparison is not a warning; it is simply a statement of fact.

We'll have to disagree on that.
Jesus is warning that we MUST continue in His word.
I believe John 12 makes that very clear....
we must RECEIVE Jesus' word.
Another member posted a passage that has both a descriptive and prescriptive statement in it....by Paul.
Here it is:
1 Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, DESCRIPTIVE

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— DESCRIPTIVE

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, PRESCRIPTIVE
The word IF creates a condition.

IF we do verse 23,,,,,the condition,
then verse 22 will happen.

 

[HeIsHere]

You don't know this but I grew up spiritually to a point under Thieme's teaching and have thousands of hours of his teachings and all of his written materials in my past education, went to seminary at his suggestion of a certain seminary, was ordained a pastor-teacher by him near the end of seminary, and later came to disagree with the Free-Grace system of theology that he taught.

He was quite a teacher from the original languages and in the end his main impression on me was to learn them. Due to a few reasons, I learned mainly Greek, and any Hebrew is nearly gone at this point. I can struggle through it if necessary up to a point.

As I told @Kroogz and at least one other, in the scholarly and leadership ranks of believers RBT was not without criticism. Who isn't? But one of those criticisms was that he turns out parrots who know his 'doctrine' but not the Text, and also that they are very assertive with the 'doctrine' they've learned and view others without that doctrine as losers.

I don't think this is much different for many systematic theologies and for many in the pews today being taught them.

I agree with you on the 'IF' clauses. As I said, that little 2-letter English word is a big one in Scripture and in Greek it's complicated because it can be used different ways.

The only way scripture is consistent and can be understood correctly is to start with the BIG truth and go from there.
All words, phrases, idioms, verbiage, passages and letters are always understood from that one BIG over arching TRUTH.

What is that TRUTH you might ask... the truth is the gift of salvation, once received based on the terms God defines >>>>>> that gift is unconditional and cannot be forsaken, revoked or taken back!!!

Paul's letters are written to believers. They are saved, but that does not mean that they all are in HEALTHY spiritual condition, some are not.

Paul wants them to be in a HEALTHY spiritual place.

How is that HEALTHLY spiritual place maintained >>>>>>> by remembering what they were taught and living IN the holy blameless life they were given. The LIFE hid in Christ.

No loss of salvation is in view, and it never is or ever will be.

The End... except for what is plainly obvious that @Toknow still has not learned the TRUTH of salvation.

 

[Toknow]

You don't know this but I grew up spiritually to a point under Thieme's teaching and have thousands of hours of his teachings and all of his written materials in my past education, went to seminary at his suggestion of a certain seminary, was ordained a pastor-teacher by him near the end of seminary, and later came to disagree with the Free-Grace system of theology that he taught.

He was quite a teacher from the original languages and in the end his main impression on me was to learn them. Due to a few reasons, I learned mainly Greek, and any Hebrew is nearly gone at this point. I can struggle through it if necessary up to a point.

As I told @Kroogz and at least one other, in the scholarly and leadership ranks of believers RBT was not without criticism. Who isn't? But one of those criticisms was that he turns out parrots who know his 'doctrine' but not the Text, and also that they are very assertive with the 'doctrine' they've learned and view others without that doctrine as losers.

I don't think this is much different for many systematic theologies and for many in the pews today being taught them.

I agree with you on the 'IF' clauses. As I said, that little 2-letter English word is a big one in Scripture and in Greek it's complicated because it can be used different ways.

You studied and were able to come to understand the NT instead of what RBT was teaching.
You were a good Berean.

Like I said,,,I also believed in OSAS....but it's a lie and may cause some to lose their salvation...which is why I like to post.
The lie must be exposed for those who are willing to hear....too many come on these forums to learn and the teaching cannot be one-sided.

Charles Stanley clearly taught that no matter what a person does, he will remain saved.
This means a muderer could have the Holy Spirit living IN him.
It's nonsense.

As to the IF in Greek....
Yes sir.
Satan said to Jesus IF you are the Son of God...
but he knew He was.

But in the cases of the scripture I post,,,it's a warning...
it's a condition.

 

[Toknow]

The only way scripture is consistent and can be understood correctly is to start with the BIG truth and go from there.
All words, phrases, idioms, verbiage, passages and letters are always understood from that one BIG over arching TRUTH.

What is that TRUTH you might ask... the truth is the gift of salvation, once received based on the terms God defines >>>>>> that gift is unconditional and cannot be forsaken, revoked or taken back!!!

Paul's letters are written to believers. They are saved, but that does not mean that they all are in HEALTHY spiritual condition, some are not.

Paul wants them to be in a HEALTHY spiritual place.

How is that HEALTHLY spiritual place maintained >>>>>>> by remembering what they were taught and living IN the holy blameless life they were given. The LIFE hid in Christ.

No loss of salvation is in view, and it never is or ever will be.

The End... except for what is plainly obvious that @Toknow still has not learned the TRUTH of salvation.

Jeff,
I don't really care what you think about me.
You think you have a bone to pick...but it most certainly is not with me.
You're a mean person that does not demonstrate any Christianly attitude.
You've been trying to get me kicked off the Forum since I got here...
You're a troll,, pure and simple and you know really well what that is.

So you had to leave the other place...
you're own fault.

I will return to my rule of not replying to you....

one other thought for you:

PERHAPS YOU DON'T KJNOW THE BIG TRUTH.

Perhaps you need to start over again.

 

[HeIsHere]

You studied and were able to come to understand the NT instead of what RBT was teaching.
You were a good Berean.

Like I said,,,I also believed in OSAS....but it's a lie and may cause some to lose their salvation...which is why I like to post.
The lie must be exposed for those who are willing to hear....too many come on these forums to learn and the teaching cannot be one-sided.

Charles Stanley clearly taught that no matter what a person does, he will remain saved.
This means a muderer could have the Holy Spirit living IN him.
It's nonsense.

As to the IF in Greek....
Yes sir.
Satan said to Jesus IF you are the Son of God...
but he knew He was.

But in the cases of the scripture I post,,,it's a warning...
it's a condition.

I hope you are heeding your own warnings, did you know that scripture states to break one law is to break all the law.
James 2:10

 

[HeIsHere]

Jeff,
I don't really care what you think about me.
You think you have a bone to pick...but it most certainly is not with me.
You're a mean person that does not demonstrate any Christianly attitude.
You've been trying to get me kicked off the Forum since I got here...
You're a troll,, pure and simple and you know really well what that is.

So you had to leave the other place...
you're own fault.

I will return to my rule of not replying to you....

one other thought for you:

PERHAPS YOU DON'T KJNOW THE BIG TRUTH.

Perhaps you need to start over again.

I am a woman and you are now once again lying about who I am.

 

[Toknow]

I just read this after I replied to your other post. Interesting that you saw this.

I really don't care to respond to posters that are unable to have a conversation of any subastance...
but I couldnt' help myself there after seeing all those books he wrote.

Know what we should be reading?
The ECFs.

AFTER the NT.