Faith or Law?

[Watchman22]

Any wisdom or discernment I may have accumulated is a direct product of turning to God amid suffering. Many of us are so hard headed, it takes a catastrophe or two before we listen. Even then, we can take no credit for what He does through the Holy Spirit.

Ya I'm definitely in that camp also. My suffering is always growing, but the Spirit and mind of Him seems to keep it at bay somehow. Rejoicing in my afflictions is something I'm admittedly not good at.

Any advice on that part?

 

[Toknow]

I suspect the issue is that you don't like what I say to you because I reveal shortcomings in your rationale, behaviour, and views.

Yep.
That's the ticket!

I always listen to MAN when it comes to God things.
And you just don't tell me what I want to hear.

You know...
all that talk of just believing...whatever believe means (who can know)
and how it's probably not even necessary to obey
because
we're saved NO MATTER WHAT!!

Yeah. That reassuring talk is just not palatable to me.

I like to work hard and be legalistic and obey all those Mosaic Laws.
God must probably be really mad at me too...

You know...He doesn't need my help and all that.

SOLA SCRPTURA
SOLA FIDE

It's working out really well for Christianity.

 

[HeIsHere]

I suspect the issue is that you don't like what I say to you because I reveal shortcomings in your rationale, behaviour, and views.

perhaps agenda too.

 

[Watchman22]

Yep.
That's the ticket!

I always listen to MAN when it comes to God things.
And you just don't tell me what I want to hear.

You know...
all that talk of just believing...whatever believe means (who can know)
and how it's probably not even necessary to obey
because
we're saved NO MATTER WHAT!!

Yeah. That reassuring talk is just not palatable to me.

I like to work hard and be legalistic and obey all those Mosaic Laws.
God must probably be really mad at me too...

You know...He doesn't need my help and all that.

SOLA SCRPTURA
SOLA FIDE

It's working out really well for Christianity.

Every once in a great while someone asks the right question, and it makes my heart leap. Thanks Toknow.

 

[TruthDefender]

Hey!
Are you serious!

I took one look at that chart and my brain turned off!

And "a few" languages sounds like a lot.
I doubt I said a few.

I was having a convo with a calvinist a couple of years ago, and he believed that DRAW ALL PEOPLE TO MYSELF meant DRAG.

DRAG is used in Acts (can't remember the verse) but it's a different word in other languages...
in English is was being translated as the same word.

This is the only time I can remember where the Greek was extremely important.

In other cases,,,unless a person is doing a real scholarly study (which most of us do not) I doubt the Greek is really necessary..

EXCEPT

To get some nice deeper meaning that could open up new thoughts/ideas/the oipportunity to understand God/Jesus better.

To “Drag” someone seems so harsh!!

 

[Inquisitor]

So it would seem that you DO understand that BELIEVE must be on-going.
TRUST must be on-going.



So it would seem that you DO believe that we are to SURRENDER to Him.

or do you?

Ah. Maybe not.

However, it is impossible to see the difference because you did not post the opposing view.
You posted only Ephesians 2:8

Where is the opposing scripture??

(I might have missed it).

You are trying to associate your obedience, your surrender, as the underlying reason for your salvation.

Salvation is granted as a free gift and not on the basis of your obedience or your surrender.

There are three verses below you should consider.

Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

How you use that free gift is up to you but salvation ultimately is by God's grace,
from start to finish.

You gain salvation only by calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Toknow]

To “Drag” someone seems so harsh!!

It was harsh:
Here it is in Acts:

Acts 14.19
19But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

If I remember correctly,,,the calvinist believer was saying that the word DRAG was in

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Acts is drag
John is draw

But Calvinists believe God does everything so they believe God drags us to Him.

instead, God draws us to Him.

 

[Toknow]

You are trying to associate your obedience, your surrender, as the underlying reason for your salvation.

Salvation is granted as a free gift and not on the basis of your obedience or your surrender.

There are three verses below you should consider.

Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

How you use that free gift is up to you but salvation ultimately is by God's grace,
from start to finish.

You gain salvation only by calling on the name of the Lord.

I think I've already asked you to define salvation.
WHEN are we saved?

You seem to be ASSUMING that I believe we are saved by works.

I believe I've stated that NO Christian believes we are saved by works
but we are saved by God's grace through faith.

Are you saying that we're not supposed to obey God AFTER we're saved?
And we'll be saved anyway? Even if we disobey God?
Are you saying that we're saved even if we DO NOT surrender to God?

Please clarify.

 

[studier]

It was harsh:
Here it is in Acts:

Acts 14.19
19But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

If I remember correctly,,,the calvinist believer was saying that the word DRAG was in

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Acts is drag
John is draw

But Calvinists believe God does everything so they believe God drags us to Him.

instead, God draws us to Him.

Acts14:19 and John12:32 use different Greek words - drag is good in Acts - draw/attract is good in John.

 

[TruthDefender]

It was harsh:
Here it is in Acts:

Acts 14.19
19But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

If I remember correctly,,,the calvinist believer was saying that the word DRAG was in

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Acts is drag
John is draw

But Calvinists believe God does everything so they believe God drags us to Him.

instead, God draws us to Him.

Those 2 verses are talking about 2 different things. One is meant to be harsh, the other not. Just saying.

 

[Rob7]

I've come to reason out that modern "Christianity" is very much simpler than most folks are trying to understand it to be.

There are just TWO religious systems in the world TODAY, all the way back to Eden. One the Spirit of Able, the other the spirit of Cain. One obedience, the other disobedience.

Satan has been very proficient at deceiving most folks all through history, believing his Doctrines of Disobedience. TODAY, most all men prefer believing Satan's 1st lie from Eden, rather than Jesus.

As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 , Luke 17:26-27 ... Most men TODAY believe Satan, to continue in their lusts "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life." (1 John 2:16 ) ... rather than believing (Noah) Jesus, the Word.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

 

[Inquisitor]

Are you saying that we're not supposed to obey God AFTER we're saved?
And we'll be saved anyway? Even if we disobey God?
Are you saying that we're saved even if we DO NOT surrender to God?

Why did you make that free gift of salvation granted by God's grace a conditional covenant?

Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Obviously, there is a problem with your reading comprehension in the N.T.

Anyone and that means anyone who calls on the name of the Lord is saved.

By grace means that there is no qualification criteria and no clauses, you are saved.

No one can deny that salvation is a free gift, it's a fact.

Another topic for another day is whether you can void that gift of salvation.

 

[Dino246]

I've come to reason out that modern "Christianity" is very much simpler than most folks are trying to understand it to be.

There are just TWO religious systems in the world TODAY, all the way back to Eden. One the Spirit of Able, the other the spirit of Cain. One obedience, the other disobedience.

Satan has been very proficient at deceiving most folks all through history, believing his Doctrines of Disobedience. TODAY, most all men prefer believing Satan's 1st lie from Eden, rather than Jesus.

As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 , Luke 17:26-27 ... Most men TODAY believe Satan, to continue in their lusts "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life." (1 John 2:16 ) ... rather than believing (Noah) Jesus, the Word.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

There is no need to post the same thing in two or more different threads. That is spamming.

 

[Journey_man]

Please post where I stated that I said we are saved by works.
I don't know any Christian that believes that we are saved by works.


What do you mean by TOTAL DEPRAVITY?
Are you reformed?


I'll post Isaiah 64:1- 5 again


1Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
2As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

3When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

4For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.

5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


To whom does the writer wish that God would make Himself known?
For whom does God act?
God meets someone. Who?
What is that person doing?
why was God angry (sounds like a human trait) at some?
Why?
WHO has come to be as unclean before God?
Whose works are like filthy rags?
Are they God-fearing people?
Or are the full of iniquity?

The above are in order of the wrier's statements and should be easy to answer.
If you can answer all thsese questions...
you might have to change your theology.


YOU seemed to be concerned about having the correct MOTIVE for doing good works.


One verse is in Isaiah 64...I pointed it out to you.

You need proof that God is happy with humans??


Ezekiel 18:13
13Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Psalm 147:10-11
10He does not delight in the strength of the horse;
He does not take pleasure in the legs of a man.

11The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.



God is the very source of happiness.

Please post where I stated that I said we are saved by works.
I don't know any Christian that believes that we are saved by works.


What do you mean by TOTAL DEPRAVITY?
Are you reformed?


I'll post Isaiah 64:1- 5 again


1Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
2As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

3When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

4For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.

5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


To whom does the writer wish that God would make Himself known?
For whom does God act?
God meets someone. Who?
What is that person doing?
why was God angry (sounds like a human trait) at some?
Why?
WHO has come to be as unclean before God?
Whose works are like filthy rags?
Are they God-fearing people?
Or are the full of iniquity?

The above are in order of the wrier's statements and should be easy to answer.
If you can answer all thsese questions...
you might have to change your theology.


YOU seemed to be concerned about having the correct MOTIVE for doing good works.


One verse is in Isaiah 64...I pointed it out to you.

You need proof that God is happy with humans??


Ezekiel 18:13
13Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Psalm 147:10-11
10He does not delight in the strength of the horse;
He does not take pleasure in the legs of a man.

11The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.



God is the very source of happiness.

In Post #829 you said "Jesus commands us to obey Him and His teaching". I shouldn't need to remind you about your "saved by works" version of the gospel.

I'm a follower of the Lord Jesus, I don't know why you reject Gods Word, when it goes against your version of the gospel. Haven't you ever heard that we are all born "DEAD" IN SIN. You don't get any more depraved than being "dead in your sin".

I read right through Isaiah 54 and it doesn't say that God ever experienced the human emotion of happiness. You should go back and read over it before you make false claims.

Unlike yourself, I don't believe that God can be fooled by those who perform fake good works. God does look at the heart (motive). Paying lip service and doing outward religious works, is not the same as doing them in the right spirit.

Happiness is a temporal human emotion, which is here today and gone tomorrow. But the joy Gods people have is eternal.

 

[Qt]

There is only one faith that matters. It is the faith of the Son of God. I don't know why modern translations mess with the literal. Since you are a pastor, perhaps you can explain.

Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.

A lot gets lost in translation because the literal at times does not make sense to those who are translating. Gal 2:20 is good example. It literally says we live in faith, that of Son of God, yet a lot of modern translations just say we live by faith in Christ.

 

[Gideon300]

Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.

A lot gets lost in translation because the literal at times does not make sense to those who are translating. Gal 2:20 is good example. It literally says we live in faith, that of Son of God, yet a lot of modern translations just say we live by faith in Christ.

Agree that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. That bothers me, because it implies that modern Bible translators are not spiritual but rather merely intellectual. Still, I have no inclination to learn Greek, so I have to look at the literal as well as the interpretation. Bible Hub helps me a lot.

 

[Toknow]

In Post #829 you said "Jesus commands us to obey Him and His teaching". I shouldn't need to remind you about your "saved by works" version of the gospel.

Do this Journey man:

Please explain what you think the gospel is.....

I'm a follower of the Lord Jesus, I don't know why you reject Gods Word, when it goes against your version of the gospel.

Again,,,,there is only ONE version of the gospel.

Please state it.

Haven't you ever heard that we are all born "DEAD" IN SIN. You don't get any more depraved than being "dead in your sin".

I read right through Isaiah 54 and it doesn't say that God ever experienced the human emotion of happiness. You should go back and read over it before you make false claims.

HOW is understanding something that YOU do not agree with....
making a false claim??

You mean to say that if I do NOT agree with you about something...
I'm making a false claim?

You should think this through.

Unlike yourself, I don't believe that God can be fooled by those who perform fake good works.

Please post where I said that God can be fooled.
Thanks.

God does look at the heart (motive). Paying lip service and doing outward religious works, is not the same as doing them in the right spirit.

Did I say we should give lip service?

Happiness is a temporal human emotion, which is here today and gone tomorrow. But the joy Gods people have is eternal.

You know, Journey man...
it's a little dangerous speaking to you.

You put words in my mouth,,
you misrepresent me,,
you tell me I make false claims.

Please reply to my requests above and show where I've stated what you THINK I stated.
thanks.

 

[Toknow]

Why did you make that free gift of salvation granted by God's grace a conditional covenant?

You want to talk about covenants?
Could you explain the New Covenant?
How is it different from the Mosaic Covenant?

Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Obviously, there is a problem with your reading comprehension in the N.T.

There does seem to be a problem with comprehension here because I asked
you very specific questions

to which you DID NOT reply,,,,
but posted some scriputre instead that DOES NOT answer my questions.

Some on this Forum are not able to use scripture to their advantage.

Anyone and that means anyone who calls on the name of the Lord is saved.

By grace means that there is no qualification criteria and no clauses, you are saved.

Really?

You mean I could call on the Name of the Lord,,,,
keep on lying, having affairs, stealing.

AND I'M STILL SAVED?

You say there are no qualificaitons:

Let's take something easy....
Do you see a qualification here?

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


There's a BIG qualification there....
but do you see it?

No one can deny that salvation is a free gift, it's a fact.

Justification is a free gift.
Sanctification is not.

No sanctification...no justification.
No justification....no salvation.

Another topic for another day is whether you can void that gift of salvation.

Let's talk about it right now:


2 Peter 2:20-22 A DOG RETURNS TO ITS VOMIT.....A SOW TO WALLOWING IN THE MIRE
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

 

[Toknow]

I've come to reason out that modern "Christianity" is very much simpler than most folks are trying to understand it to be.

There are just TWO religious systems in the world TODAY, all the way back to Eden. One the Spirit of Able, the other the spirit of Cain. One obedience, the other disobedience.

Satan has been very proficient at deceiving most folks all through history, believing his Doctrines of Disobedience. TODAY, most all men prefer believing Satan's 1st lie from Eden, rather than Jesus.

As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 , Luke 17:26-27 ... Most men TODAY believe Satan, to continue in their lusts "For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life." (1 John 2:16 ) ... rather than believing (Noah) Jesus, the Word.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​

What is a Protestant of the Roman Catholic Church?

I'd also say that the Christianity of disobedience, or the religion of disobedience,,,,
is NOT Christian....
it never was
and it never will be
which is why some on these Forums are MISLEADING persons...
Just like paul said would happen.

 

[Adstar]

Has anyone advised you that we are no longer under THE LAW?

What does it mean to BELIEVE Jesus?

Did you know that even demons believe Jesus?

Christians are supposed to believe IN Jesus.

We who are in Christ are no longer under the Condemnation of the LAW, the death penalty of the LAW.. Because our transgressions are atoned for.. But the Law is still good and true.. Unless you think it is good to commit adultery and steal and murder? Of course we still acknowledge and teach the Law. Because it reveals we are all Transgressors in NEED of the Atonement of The LORD Jesus..

Believing Jesus is to believe His Words.. All his words in Scripture.. Both OT and NT..

Believing IN Jesus is a combined believing and trusting in both the message of Jesus AND his Atoning blood..